Tavern Talks

Adam: Well met once again, weary
travelers, and welcome back to

the heart of our storytelling
sanctuary, the Tavern Talks podcast.

I'm Adam, and alongside me
stands the ever watchful Zac.

Zac: Here we are, surrounded by the warmth
of camaraderie and the echoes of countless

tales, ready to embark on a new quest
within the realms of Dungeons Dragons.

Adam: Today, our tankards are raised high,
in a toast to the shadows that linger.

To the villains that
dance in the twilight.

For today, we unravel the
mysteries of The Big Bad Evil Guy.

Zac: Well done!

Alright, so picture stepping into our
virtual tavern where the air is thick with

anticipation, and the tells of malevolent
forces echo through the rafters.

We're diving into the heart of darkness,
exploring the enigmatic figures that haunt

our campaigns, the Big Bad Evil Guys.

Adam: That was a big word for you.

Zac: Big Bad Evil Guy

Adam: No, the, the enigmatic.

Zac: Enigmatic,

Adam: yeah, that was a big word.

So pull up a chair, gather round the
table, and let's unravel the secrets

behind crafting the perfect nemesis.

Whether you faced off against
Dark Lords or Cunning Masterminds,

this is the place to be.

Zac: So to the architects of doom,
the puppet masters of our stories.

Adam: that's us.

Zac: That's a little Stranger
Things reference too, I like it.

Welcome to another session
of Tavern Talks Podcast.

Adam: What an introduction.

What an introduction.

Zac: I do try.

I

Adam: see.

that.

Zac: I mean, you know.

I am co hosting this.

Adam: you now, really?

Zac: Gotta

Adam: that what was said in the

Zac: some effort.

Adam: a Zac in there somewhere.

What was that?

The ever watchful Zac?

Zac: I don't know, you
called me short last episode.

So, let's

Adam: The ever short Zac?

Short man?

Zac: No, small in stature I think it was.

Adam: He's got a big heart guys.

He's got a big heart.

Zac: Something like that.

Alright, so.

All right.

Crafting, uh, our perfect bad guy.

Adam: guy.

Gah.

Half the time I don't even have a bad guy

Zac: Bad girl.

You know, whatever.

Hey, it's 2024.

Let's

Adam: What happens at
home stays at home, Zac.

Zac: That's fun.

You know,

Adam: But you're, you're big, you're
BBEG, as the DMs of the world call

it, and the players themselves.

You always need one or a multitude of
them, depending on what you choose.

Um, it can be, like right
now, you think the BBEG in our

world is the Empire themselves.

, but maybe they will strike
back and change the tune.

There's a little Star
Wars reference for you.

. But, at the same time, you need to
craft a, a BBEG or plan for one.

You don't always have to figure
it out like we did in the previous

episode of the first session.

You don't always have to have an idea.

Of the BBEG at that point, but it should
start forming within the first 10 or so

sessions that you play out, and you know
where you want to end up, and you know

where you want to go with it, so you start
off hinting at something in the mists,

in the darkness, uprising, demons, it
could be, you know, a clergyman of sorts.

Zac: just

Adam: see Zac's eyes twitch
just a little bit there.

Zac: I've been telling Adam that guys up
to something, the last umpteen sessionst

Adam: having such a compelling
antagonist not be revealed at the very

beginning is sometimes fun to play
with because your players don't know

who in the end's uprising or who is
pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Zac: You want small breadcrumbs
of what's actually happening.

Adam: Yeah.

, you could have an underground
organization, a rogue network.

There's inklings of disturbances in a
city that's far away, but eventually, you

know, the players get caught up in, in it
by doing quests for the organization, or

they, , seek help for, from, , a cleric.

But the cleric actually becomes, you
know, the evil bad guy because you got

him certain items on, he sent you on a
quest for, and then he turns around and.

gives you a big middle finger and
says thank you for assisting me and

then he opens up a whole, you know,
planar existence of hell coming out.

There's a lot of different
things that you can throw in.

I oftentimes like to go with the option
of there's one main antagonist and the

players don't always know who that's
going to be and either it's a party

member themselves or there could be
a Person that they've met early on

that they are very trusting of and
then they turn on them at some point

Zac: Uh, yeah, I mean it really
could be, there's a, there's

a multitude of ways you could.

You can tackle a BBEG.

, you, you want your villain to be well
rounded and well thought out, not

just a cop out of, Oh, it's your, it's
the lover you took in this campaign

or this quest, or it's your, your

Adam: don't want the one off, , one off
thing that kind of leads them like really

this was the, this was the evil guy.

, you want to make him alive and feel alive.

Feel that he's controlling a
lot of things in the real world.

Or in, in the, in the aspects of
your world that you are creating.

So while the players are off on a quest,
when they come back things may not

always Exactly come back to be the same.

Maybe the BBEG strolled up and
killed a bunch of people and they,

and he left town or she left town.

, the, the players don't really know.

It could be a lich.

You could be trying to find the, , uh, I
don't want to say horcruxes, but the, um,

God, the name

Zac: You're, you're blanking.

Basically the, we're going to say
like the parts of Vecna essentially

where you have to destroy them
all to destroy the big bad guy.

, yeah, look, look that
one up while I'm gonna,

Adam: one up while

Zac: I'll go ahead and take

Adam: I don't want to say Horcruxes
because it's not the correct,

Zac: That is, uh, that's trademarked
and I am too broke to be sued.

So, No, you, you also want your,
but here's the thing, you can,

phylactery, how in God's
name would I have thought of

Adam: I

would have because I've played
Liches as the BBEG Before

Zac: You've said phylacteries
in an actual sentence?

Adam: Yeah because i dont
want to use horucruxes

Zac: gonna tell you right now, you have
a better chance at me understanding

horror crux than phylacterie.

But

Adam: They could have the phylacteries
of a lich and dont know what they

are and hold onto them forever.

Onto 'em in their bag of holding forever.

And

, eventually they come across Lich
knows that they have the Phylacteries

and that could create a big problem.

, it just depends on how you want
to shape the whole BBEG and what

kind of avenue you're going.

But that also helps out with
how, , There's different types , of

BBEGs, there's , just a plain
dark lord that uprises out of

the planes of hell themselves.

There could be an overall god controlling
a person themselves, possessing them.

You can also have just a very smart
wizard that is very cunning that

just, you know, necromantic wizard.

It's always easy to go with those
tropes and sometimes if it is

your first D& D session and D&
D as a DM, lean on those tropes.

, I would even suggest leaning
on them because it's easier

to understand, in totality.

Now.

in my

campaign with Zac as we're going
through it and you'll get inklings

and hints of things throughout
our episodes as we go along.

I have the BBEG as the , ba
basically the empire right now at

this point is what they think it is.

That's not the real BBEG, but
right now they are at odds with it.

So I think in a way, as a dm, just
think of it as your big, bad, evil

guide can change from Quest to Quest
to the over art, you know, arcs that

you have in the Quest themselves.

So I always try to set it up as.

I have a BBEG that's an overall through
the whole campaign of five to six year

campaign and I have it split up into like
four different arcs for player development

and player continuity and each arc has
its own individual BBEG and then below

that there's lieutenants and there's
captains and then there's I kind of feel

like i'm starting like an MLM company

Zac: Yeah.

Adam: A pyramid.

scheme I create a pyramid of BBEGs

Zac: Well, you've, you've gotta
have villains to add to the story.

And here's the thing.

You can tackle A-B-B-E-G, you're
creating for your story a million

different ways, but it all really comes
down to how you're gonna integrate

'em in the actual campaign themselves.

What you, you can't just have this,
I mean, you could technically if

you wanted, but it's no fun for your
players if you just got this big, bad.

Truthfully, evil guy that does
nothing but he's just bloodlust.

I mean, there, there's no, there's no real
reasoning as to behind what's happening

in the world other than this guy's
just killing people and we got to stop

stop him.

Adam: No motivation

Zac: motivation.

You want to give your, your villains,
you want to give them a reasoning as to

why they're doing it, what they're doing.

, And how that's been affecting the world.

And we've talked about, you know, building
your, world, whether it be landscape

wise or, you know, NPCs, characters,
, and just your party themselves, but

when you really add into or factor
in , you're bad guy and Adam, we've,

.
Brainstorm stuff like this.

Maybe they could be releasing a
blight on the land and it's slowly

infecting, you know, each nation or
state or, , realm, however you have

it, , just don't create a villain
that fits your generic mold, use those

molds and then kind of expand on them.

, don't leave it in the same mold.

It is.

It's like you wouldn't make a gingerbread
cookie and then not decorated at all.

I mean, maybe you would.

I don't know if you're a psychopath
or not, but, well, that's an 11.

Well, that's 11.

Um,

but ultimately, you have to be able to
move this villain into your campaign.

Um,

How you're, , really
introduce him to the players

Adam: Yeah, um, you, you sit
there, your, your BBEG should,

before you even try to introduce it

any of

the characters should have.

Some kind of rich backstory,
or some kind of, uh, motivation

behind it, like Zac was saying.

You, you gotta find what that
is, and really think about it.

Why would this person, what,
what did, what do they want?

, what possesses them to have this?

Why, why do they want this?

You gotta ask yourself these
questions when trying to create this.

the ultimate BBEG, whether
it be the empire itself.

What do they want?

They want control.

They want to take over lands, more lands.

They're trying to mine this special
ore that enhances magical abilities

of them because they're going to
war with the nation across the sea.

So they're trying to, you know, gather
arms basically, because they know a

war is afoot and no one else really
knows it because they live in bliss.

So you see the outskirts of it and
they, you're on the outskirts of the

city and you don't know what's really
going on inside of the, , headquarters

or the general's idea of it.

The, the other side of the coin is you've
gotta weave it in , in a specific way.

So I always go back to when I'm looking
at storylines or specific tropes.

The one that comes to mind is from Avatar,
and Avatar is a good one to represent a

BBEG that is already introduced, but we
don't really know much about him until

Season 2 and 3, more so than Season 1.

So, if you're already gonna have a BBEG
like the Empire itself, you leave those

little breadcrumbs of inklings of, , oh,
there's something more going on here,

um, in the case of Avatar, you have the
Fire Lord and the Fire Lord has rich

history, motivation, he's taking over
the Earth Kingdom, and we know about it

because there's, there's, there's Signs
of it, like the earth kingdom getting

fire nation colonies on the coasts.

And then there's certain, you know,
ships that are patrolling certain areas.

So you see it in a way that
isn't exactly the BBEG himself.

He doesn't reveal himself
until the very last episode.

Really?

You don't really get major interactions
with him until then from the main party.

Now you have . side views from,
different characters that we get

insight to, but the main characters
don't really know about it.

So if you play it that way, you leave
those breadcrumbs and that's a good way

to introduce a BBEG is a surface level.

They know that the fire Lord exists and
he's living in the, in the fire nation,

but they don't know him specifically, and
then let's throw some breadcrumbs here.

Let's fight the fire nation here.

There let's go on an
adventures here and there.

We'll meet fire nation
soldiers along the way.

Oh crap.

We're in the, you know,
Northern water tribe.

I have my own quests that I've got to do.

Well, fire nation is here.

Let's attack.

Cause we have to, cause they're attacking
the Northern water tribe into first

season, but in between that, you met,
Admiral Zao, and that becomes a BBEG for

them as a whole for the first season.

So that's why I was talking about having
smaller BBEGs to focus on on a smaller

scale, whereas the last BBEG is the big
bad person that is controlling it all.

Zac: Right, and you can have a mastermind.

You can have a master
of puppets, so to speak.

, and a route that I initially had when I
was creating a campaign that I think can

be fun as long as you do it well and you
plan it out and it's not just a cop out.

,
Introduce your BBEG, I don't
know, halfway through your story.

Brief appearance, but have
them show their power.

, whether that be, you know, critically
wound one of, Do discuss this with your

Adam: Kill a

Zac: Don't kill, don't kill the player.

Don't

Adam: the player with the BBEG.

Show your true power.

Take control.

Zac: No,

don't listen, don't listen to Adam.

Adam: to the voices in your

Zac: Look, you're gonna have a lot
of pissed off people if you do this

Adam: Youll still have

have fun.

Zac: Yeah, you'll have
a good time either way.

Truthfully.

Sometimes it's good to play bad,
but, , , at the end of the day,

Adam: to play bad

Zac: no it's not.

at the end of the day, , you can at
least frighten your players with what

all these fairy tales and, and myths
and legends have been building up to.

And then have 'em come back in the later
end of the campaign where they've, they

know what they have to be in order to
actually stand a chance against this

person or thing or whatever it is,

,
Adam: them a funny voice for the
BBEG and you'll never go wrong

because they won't be able to take
it seriously, but then when you cast

death ray on them and Right, they

Zac: Right, or disintegrate
and then it's over.

I

Adam: I mean, here's the

Zac: mean, here's the thing.

Adam: fireball

Zac: fireball

might not kill them though.

It depends on what level they are.

, make your, your characters fun.

Think it out.

Don't just throw them out
there for shits and gigs.

Adam: Have to have a

Zac: to have a purpose.

And build the tension with your players.

Please God.

Yeah, build your lore, build your
tensions, have your little minions

be cultists, you know, trying
to summon an ancient Balor, or

Do something fun.

Make this your own story,
but make it to where they are

genuinely going to be worried.

If there's no worry, there's no fun.

There's no conflict.

Adam: Yeah, you got to have conflict
and what in, like Zac said, sometimes

throwing it out there in the middle
is, it's real fun because you will get

to have the true power of the BBEG.

You come, you come across it
randomly, and then you really

realize that that is the BBEG.

But having those, Early encounters
can help with your minions that are

controlling, whether it be a cultist, or a
rogue organization, or , An ancient demon

that is trying to get power or an ancient
god that's trying to have power themselves

It becomes a very good player Established
connection that you're gonna have with

the BBEG fighting the minions themselves
Understanding that these one off minions

happen and they don't really pick up
on what's really pulling the strings

behind the scenes of that Um You can even
introduce in your session zeroes that

the characters themselves may have a back
story pertaining to the BBEG that you have

in place But they don't really realize
it at the time or they have a tragic

one where the the big bad evil guy came
into town And killed their family that

kind of stuff if they want that that's
perfectly fine as you're building lore

for the BBEG themselves and the minions
that fall underneath the MLM of the BBEG

Zac: Yeah, and I guess that kind
of brings us into what we're going

to discuss a little bit further.

Next is how we've been talking
about introduce your players to this

threat, whether it be on a subtle
note or a large note, but you really

want to build the anticipation.

I know I sound like a broken
record here, but layer.

Adam: I know

Zac: I, I'm a lore slut to the fullest.

Adam: I'm a lore slut.

Uh, strife and that tension in the
room when you're the DM playing

it and the players themselves
know what they're getting into.

But then they have to play it as the
character, they get really heated.

And it's real fun to see, because you
always want to keep them guessing,

but you also want to give them that
breadcrumb and throw it at them.

Sometimes it'll hit them in their
face without them realizing it.

Zac: And, it's not always bad to just
kind of, you know, this goes back to

session one, session zero, post session
conversations, talk with your players.

I mean, obviously not mid game, but pre
or post game, talk to them a little bit.

I would suggest post just so you don't.

Lead them on to think that something
overly stimulating is going to happen

in the session you're about to host but,
talk about how layered, challenges are

going to be laid out in front of them.

They're going to have tough choices.

Their characters going to struggle.

You've got to create the urgency but also.

You're crafty.

You're a DM.

This is your rodeo at

Adam: crafty!

of

Zac: the day.

It's your rodeo at the end of the day.

So foreshadow what could happen.

Um,

Adam: um, dreams,

Zac: um, you

know, you could, you could always
do dreams, but you can also do

subtleties in the world itself.

Small NPC characters.

I mean, just lead it up to and make it
make sense for your characters because

Adam: once

Zac: Once the, once the players feel
involved with the BBEG, then they have

some, they have a personal stake in it.

Yeah, you

Adam: can have dreams.

Um, you know, one time I actually had
them teleport out of a plane into another

plane And they get pulled out of it They
get pulled out of their world into the

gods world and they're surrounded by
the gods and they are bestowed upon them

like Some weapons because they know what
the evil is afoot and they feel a huge

responsibility after that to listen to
the gods So there's different ways you

can foreshadow what's to come and playing
as God himself and the gods of themselves

You are the end all be all of everything

So you're

having that dilemma of creating of
that you want to create the The whole

anticipation and the whole urgency
around why they're going through this

and and having the aspects of the
lieutenants doing the dirty work for

the BBEG and having, maybe they're
going after something specifically

for the BBEG and you, the players come
upon that and they try to stop it.

If they do successfully stop it,
you realize what kind of weapon that

they could have gotten, that kind
of things that you can kind of weave

into the storylines themselves.

You also want to make
sure that you present.

Difficult choices for your players
to go through because the, I

think the best villain that I've
created is a justified villain.

So,

he's an evil person, but in his own
weird way, you can almost agree with

Zac: Oh, narcissist

Adam: Not really, but at the same
time, you almost agree with him.

Just believe him in a way, even though
his intentions are bad, that villain

feels like he is truthfully right in that

Zac: So you're basically
saying pull a Thanos.

Adam: Yeah, I mean, was
Thanos wrong for snapping?

Zac: Hey, you

know, sometimes a man's
gotta snap his fingers.

Adam: his fingers.

So, uh, having that conflict and that
moral Hey, sometimes I may agree with

this big bad evil guy, and you're
like, crap, why do I agree with him?

Zac: And, that's, that's
fair for a player to do that.

Where they are morally questioning
what this guy, or girl, whoever

it might be, creature, is doing.

Don't, as a player, and this is
something you have to control as a DM too.

You have to establish this pre play.

Pre conflict.

Um, you cannot have a lawful good
player then join a chaotic evil

fiend just because the player wants

Adam: stick within your You gotta

Zac: You gotta

stay within the realm, so to speak.

Within your nature.

Yeah, and, that's
something you'll need to

Validate, tell your players,
Hey, this is where you are.

You know, that's something
that cannot be done.

There is no, there's been no justification
for your paladin to suddenly become

a demon worshiping, , cultist.

It just, it doesn't fit.

There's been no story behind it.

So yes, create these moral decisions.

And if you're, you've got one, one
or two players on the neutral line.

Yeah.

You can completely decide if that's.

What they want to do if, if
that's where they're gonna go.

And that can really create
division and conflict within the

party and then put your players
in a whole new situation where

Adam: They gotta be convincing enough.

Zac: Well, not even that.

They themselves might become, like
you said earlier, they, your party

members might be the BBEG, um,

Adam: Or at least a little bit.

Sometimes a traitor
players is fun to play.

You also got to think about how
successful each quest that you send

your characters on through the NPCs
and such that they stumble upon things.

The way that they act during those
situations will have untold effects

on later on in the campaign.

So you as a DM are taking good notes on
how or what happened during the quest.

Maybe an NPC died.

Maybe, you know, one got left behind,
maybe they were unsuccessful at retrieving

the item that they were sent to go get
and they got into the clutches of the

evil hands and they didn't realize it.

Maybe they were too slow.

Maybe they lollygagged that
creates a real world, real world.

It feels real.

, not having them complete the
quest each and every single time.

, if they fail the quest,
that's perfectly okay.

Um, they don't always have to complete
the quest and that sense of failure makes

it real to them in and their characters
because they will change their tactics,

but also you as a DM will be able to
shape the world around them based upon

the decisions that the players made.

So take good notes throughout the
campaign of different decisions that

failed or worked and take note of that.

So that way when you craft the
final encounter with the BBEG.

You'll be prepared on a whole new
level of how to introduce him, how

to weave him into this climatic clash
between the players and the party.

Make sure you get your popcorn ready
folks because it's gonna be a doozy.

Zac: It's gonna be a doozy.

And add some, add some
flair in this buildup.

Don't don't add

Adam: You like jazz?

Zac: gonna be the big bad evil guy right
there is some guy who plays a saxophone.

He's just gonna bust

Adam: Bill

Zac: Yeah you've had

Essentially, let's just imagine we're
at the end and conclusion of the

campaign you have not built, Weeks,
months, days, years, however long or

short you've spent on crafting this
campaign, you have put in time to make

this BBEG something of a formidable foe.

But,

you don't just want your players knowing
every little nook and cranny about it

without any kind of notion of a twist.

, I'm not saying to pull an inception here.

Uh, and just mind screw everybody,
essentially, but I am saying, , keep

it fresh, maybe add a maybe make it
to where the lich who's been dead

for thousands of years and the tall
tales of the lands is now using

the body of a small child who was

.
abandoned.

Adam: God.

Zac: Yeah, go dark.

Go dark.

No, but be like, oh, the king's daughter
was missing at first, and we just

thought she was, , kidnapped by some
warlord, and the next thing you know,

like You could build a whole story
into this, but the Lich is actually

using her as a vessel to try to come
into our world again as a living being.

Adam: Island episode where they
don't realize that they're the BBEG.

Zac: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Your wife crumbles in your
arms and you're like, oh, okay,

I see what's happening here.

Nah, don't, don't go that far, because
then it feels like unfair to the players.

That might be a little bit of a cop

Adam: cop out.

I thought we were

Zac: Exactly.

Have the resolution to the fight,
have it be something you've

actually worked on and built up.

Like Adam said, there's, there is a
butterfly effect in D& D, and you as a

DM have to take that in consideration.

Adam: that one time you
didn't go through that door?

Zac: Well, guess what?

You had a one shot weapon that
could have killed him for you.

Adam: So, you incorporate
those for the dramatic

conclusion of your BBEG.

And I kind of do this for every
BBEG that comes into my world.

So, I always have an overarching
BBEG, because by the time the six year

campaign's over, they're high enough
level, whether it be the original

characters or new ones along the way
to pick up the torch of the old ones.

, But having the satisfying conclusion
in between arcs are real nice as well.

So I kind of prep my BBEGs
the same way each time.

So I have an arc BBEG for
arc 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

And then at the end of the fifth
one, there's the overarching

one that they have to go solve.

But by the end of the fifth one, they're,
crazy things are happening in the world.

It's not your normal Oh, we go to the
tavern at that point and settle down

for the night We're, no, we're flying
an airship to the, to the highest

point on Earth, on the Planet and we're
gonna go fight some gods at that point

because they,

you know, royally fucked us.

You know,

Zac: things,

Adam: things of that

Zac: Right.

Adam: And, , having that as each
arc, a BBEG in each arc is, is real

nice and a real good writing point
because each one will build on the

other, um, of how evil they are.

I kind of increase the intensity of
it as we go along, but it also kind

of helps with What they started with
and where they started and they can

look back on different tropes and
different ideas that they were fighting.

Maybe they were fighting, you know, a
melee combatant and then the next one they

were fighting a wizard and then the next
one maybe they were fighting a combination

of the two and the final one it's like
a legendary creature at that point and

along the way they have faced many foes.

But the final BBEG that you're going
to bring out is going to be the end

all be all and this is the final fight.

TPKO is your ultimate goal in this fight.

In this, uh, as the DM when you're playing
the BBEG because it is their ultimate

goal to either convince them to join
them, join me, or you're gonna die and

give them that choice and then whatever
choice they decide right then and there,

You decide, I mean, I'm ruthless when it
becomes the final BBEG because I've built

up this campaign, here you are, it's like
a video game, you're You're fighting the

Zac: final boss,

Adam: boss.

You're fighting Ganon.

It's going to be TBKO or nothing.

Zac: Yeah.

I mean, and, and that's where you
don't always have to be the same DM.

And this is where your own
personal choices come into it.

You can have it to where the excitement
of, Oh, our whole party can die right now

and everything we've worked for can go.

Down the drain, which that does add
a level of, this has to be done.

I don't always suggest being deus
ex machina, uh, and saving your

players, but there are moments.

I mean, Adam, you had it literally our
first session, with one of our players.

You, you do have to give
leniency every once in a blue

Adam: while.

First session, someone's gonna die.

You don't want them to die.

They're a pivotal part of the,
uh, the whole storyline here.

And,

Zac: Hey, she died anyway though.

Adam: It It worked

out.

I have a storyline, and it fleshed

Zac: out.

Adam: And, you know, it's fine.

Zac: It's adapting.

I

Adam: dealt with

Zac: Rolling with the punches there.

Yeah, flexibility.

Um, but ultimately when the, uh,
fallout of whatever happens, happens.

Is this going to play into
your next campaign as a DM?

Um, or, are you going to create
a whole new world because this

person has brought hellfire

Adam: I usually don't,
to be honest with you.

Usually if, if we have this anti climatic
in and they lose, the heroes lose, that

there, that creates a whole nother world.

That, that same world,
but lots has changed.

Here we are 30 years into the future.

Heroes band together and now
they're having to solve the

problems of the past heroes.

Which is always a funny
little callback that you have.

Because you can introduce NPCs that are
a little bit older, a little bit wiser,

they've seen some shit at that point.

Zac: And they could be beloved
NPCs of your last party.

Adam: turned evil,

Zac: Yeah,

Adam: there's things of that nature
that are real fun to play into

if they end up losing the, world.

Now if they end up winning, that's
perfectly fine as well because

they, they're heroes at that point.

deserve a retirement and they
deserve to be like, Hey, we're

getting too old for this.

You know, you, so you, , you go 50,
60 years into the future or, you

know, you can go a hundred for all
that, that matters in D& D world.

And the, these heroes of old have
fought to protect the demons or

the blight at foot and you end up.

But having to have new characters
come in and maybe they become a guide

for you to go forth and they've, you
as the DM realize this and there's

new evils that, because there's
always going to be something, there's

always going to be a new evil that
gets unleashed upon the world.

And that's how it will shape in
the environment that you so choose.

And each time you can choose different
antagonists, this particular one,

you know, it could be the Empire next
time it may be, you know, pestilence

is, is, you know, plaguing the world.

And it may be the same world, it may be
a different part of the world, um, and

they have to solve their differences.

And maybe that group there is
actually the evil guys that

the other group hasn't met yet.

Yeah, there's different, there's different
storylines, different heroes, heroes

of legend that are being told, being
crafted, and being made at the same time.

Zac: So, , going into it in terms of
knowing the, the bad guys and their fates

or the consequences of what they did to
the party itself, , this is a good time as

a DM where you need to look back and have
some reflections on the campaign itself.

And being able to build off
of your big bad evil guy, um,

really very key component is
gathering what your players think.

This is not just an every session thing.

Yeah.

I mean, it can be, it
can be, it's completely

Adam: four.

Right,

Zac: right.

I mean, it's a, it's a consistent check in
we'll call it that, but mainly this last

campaign or the, the conclusion to this.

big bad, , talk to your players, have them
tell you what they would do differently.

Have them tell you some ideas.

It never hurts.

We can only be as open as
we allow ourselves to be.

Um,

Talk about what was learned throughout the
campaign itself, what you can do better

next time to improve on , the villain.

Sometimes you're, you know,
you're going to make mistakes.

We cannot stress that enough.

We are going to sound like we're
just repeating the same thing

over and over and over and over.

, just because we're DMs, we mess up.

We understand we're going to mess up.

Adam: we're gonna

Zac: Adam is far from perfect.

I love him dearly either way though.

, Take what you have learned, the
mistakes, the good, the bad, and

the ugly, especially if it's a lich,
and move forward with what kind

of bad guy you're going to create.

Make it a non traditional
villain, you know?

Make it an in plain sight villain.

Just change it up,

bringing us to what kind of variety
you can have in your antagonists.

Adam: I love a good variety.

Zac: Like a good cheese variety.

Cheeses.

I had a cheese advent calendar.

Wine selection.

Adam: Diversity.

Inclusion.

Zac: With wines?

Adam: No, just in general.

Zac: Oh, okay.

That's fair.

Adam: Um,

Yeah, you want to have variety.

, like I said, you, I have my arc set up as
a BBEGs at the end of each one and they

fight each one individually and they all
have different reasons for why they are

there and they have many different reasons
of why they choose to do what they do.

, they're not always going to be the
same BBEG each time because they have

different motives and different conflicts.

So make sure that you are including
the different variety a variety of

different conflicts in different areas.

You don't want to just have
like a traditional, they

go to the castle and fight.

Maybe one of the times
that they're in the air.

Maybe the next time they're in the sea.

They're fighting this, you
know, a BBEG in the sea.

He's a pirate of some sort.

I don't know.

It can happen.

But there's different motives
and different varieties.

They don't all have the same motive.

But the overarching BBEG is what ties
the each other smaller BBEG together.

Um, it also gives you an opportunity
the next time to tease the

future threats that they have.

So you, at the end of arc one, Maybe
a, , a minion escapes and runs off and

you don't know what happened to the
minion and maybe that's an inkling of

there's a future threat that's afoot.

Um, and you can build the campaign
itself up on that as like there's

other bad guys out there but they're,
they're all being pulled by the same

string of an overarching BBEG and
they're not ready to face that yet.

They're not ready to face that power.

So having the different

motives

and in, in when you finally have those
battles and teasing future, you know,

in monologues of BBEG before, like
you can have a full on monologue right

before the fight about the other threats
that are out there that, you may have

defeated me, but there's more out there.

You won't defeat us all kind of attitude.

So you think about it that way.

And as an overall.

Conclusion of this episode,
you want to make sure that

prepare.

And this is the, probably the most prep
that you ever do, especially as a veteran

DM at this point with prep is you want
to prep as much as possible for the

BBEG because you want to make it as.

Epic and as fun as possible for the
players themselves because this is what

they this is what they leveled up for
This is the reason why they're fighting.

Maybe they're taking back their you
know, they're avenging their father.

They're avenging their wife You know,
they have ties, connections to this BBEG.

It took their family, it took
their town, it destroyed it.

So they have personal vendettas
against the big bad evil guy.

So you better prep enough to be
mean, to be evil, to be justified

in why you're mean and evil.

And I think that's just the best thing if
you can ever create a justified villain.

Because you'll see the players
themselves start to second

guess themselves as a character.

Zac: right?

And

Adam: it's just fun.

And you want to make it fun for
them as well, but also at the end of

the day when you finally get to the
final BBEG and the final conclusion

to all of this, Kill them all.

Zac: Don't, don't, do not listen to him.

Do not kill 'em all.

Um, the whole reason we get to live out
these stories are because of our players.

Whereas Adam and I are fire and ice, and
we have different ways of, of DMing, I

would say, you know, until you get to
the actual big baddie of the overall

campaign, , you can play it easy on them.

Sometimes don't make it so easy to
where it's no challenge whatsoever,

but definitely don't sit there and
kill them off one, hit one drum.

, it's no fun for anybody at that point.

I don't think your party
would appreciate it.

But, , like Adam said, when you get
to the big bad guy, the big bad evil

guy, and maybe the party does defeat
them against the DM per se, have

them be afraid of what's coming next.

You know, as they're dying, then
that really, you're like, Holy shit.

Can someone really get
worse than this dude?

And then there is, or have it be a force
of nature that can't be stopped in eternal

darkness, that's going to blade land.

And he was the only thing.

Adam: Yeah, he

Zac: Yeah, he was the only, even
though he was an evil force, he

was the only thing stopping it
from infecting the world, cause.

Adam: that grocery store door.

That's the only thing
stopping them from the mist.

Zac: Yeah.

So, um, with that,

.
I would just, well, what
would you like to do, Adam?

I mean, we're going to think, or, uh,

Adam: D.

Zac: play, I mean,

Adam: it enough, now it's time to play it.

Zac: know on, on a serious
note, , we really want you guys.

We know you're going to play.

, we just like to give you random tips
and kind of a little bit of structure

to how your game's going to go.

We'd love to hear from you, uh,
yourselves about your own best.

Big, bad, evil guys

Adam: Theres a reddit on
BBEGs to incorporate, but I

always love to hear a new one.

Zac: Hey, and some, some
homebrews go very far.

I mean, false Hydra,
for example, you know?

Um, so don't be afraid to share
your ideas, no matter how zany or

silly you might think they are.

They're probably really cool
and we'd love to hear them.

Adam: hear them.

And there you have it, esteemed
travelers, the conclusion of yet another

captivating tale here at Tavern Talks.

We ventured through the shadows.

explored the layers of villainy,
and emerged victorious....

Zac: at

Adam: least for now

Zac: So a heartfelt thank you to
all of our listeners who've joined

us on this expedition into the
realms of the Big Bad Evil Guy.

Your presence in our virtual tavern adds
to the enchantment of our shared journey.

Adam: journey.

How could you be any even
more monotone in this?

Listen, I'm the villain.

We're talking about villains, I'm always

Zac: ahead and kill me off.

That'll make me feel better.

Adam: we conclude our discussion on
the puppet masters of our campaigns,

we want to hear for your tales,
share your encounters with the BB

and G's that you have faced your
strategies and your unexpected twists.

That's twisty.

Uh, reach out to us on Twitter at pod
tavern talks on Instagram at tavern talks

pod, or find us weaving stories over on
the tick tock and at tavern talks pod.

Zac: And whether you faced
ancient liches or cunning court

leaders, your stories do matter.

And we're actually eager to hear them.

Hey, you know, I try.

Adam: So until our tankards meet
again, fellow storytellers, may

your dice be kind, your campaigns
filled with epic showdowns, and may

your tales endure through the ages.

Zac: Here's to the architects of
doom, the weavers of shadows, and

the legends yet to be written.

Until next time, safe travels, and
may your stories be ever legendary.