Tavern Talks

Adam: Well met, adventurers.

I'm Adam from Tavern Talks.

Zac: And I'm Zach.

And unfortunately we are discussing,
uh, something quite controversial today.

Adam: Should we use AI
in Dungeons & Dragons?

Zac: Hell no.

Adam: Is it a tool or is it
a threat for dungeon masters?

Zac: It's not a tool, it's a tumor.

And today we'll be discussing
and possibly debating just that.

Is artificial intelligence an
enhancer or a dehabilitator?

Adam: Welcome back to
Tavern Talks podcast.

All right.

We're gonna preface this.

Zac: Preface.

Adam: I gotta preface this.

Preface.

Zach is gonna take the, uh,
uh, view of AI's terrible.

Happily.

I unfortunately drew the short straw of
supporting artificial intelligence as it

is- Hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up

as it is currently in- instilled into us,
like Claude and ChatGPT and all of that.

Zac: Okay.

Adam: So.

Zac: Okay.

Okay,

Adam: so- So we got the prefaces out.

Yes, yes, yes.

I do-- I'm not a supporter of it, so w-
I'm gonna try my best to m- remain- Defend

Zac: what you can.

Adam: Defend what I can.

Um, and this is not even just
defending just AI in general.

This is just talking about in Dungeons
& Dragons specifically, because there

is tons of new tools out there that
are coming out every single day from

all these random things that I see
floating around as ads and stuff for

specifically tuned to Dungeons & Dragons.

So anyways, um- Mm-hmm.

We'll start off, we'll
start off with this.

What AI tools are dungeon masters using?

Zac: And- Hopefully none.

That, that…

Okay, so I'm gonna take
a hard stance on this.

Adam: Okay.

That's fine.

That's what you're supposed to do.

Zac: I understand that there are,
quote-unquote, "tools" from artificial

AI that can help organize from a
dungeon m- for a dungeon master.

And I think that, and I'll
play the devil co- debil…

I can't talk, devil's advocacy to this.

Yeah, tools that help you organize stuff
are great, but the problem is ethically

how AI is being treated nowadays, right?

I'm gonna say a dungeon master since the
creation of this game, I would say late

'70s, '80s, let's talk about peak stuff.

Let's go '80s here.

Everything has been handwritten notes.

This has been from the brain of the DM.

Every action that was taken, every twist
that was had, and every turn that was

made by a player, this was all planned
from a human brain, organized by a human

brain, and journaled by a human brain.

Like this was done solely
physically by the human

Adam: creative mind.

From the imagination of a human.

Zac: Cre- creatively.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, and I feel that-

Adam: So are you saying that the
tools that are out there- I'm saying-

Let's just, let's just, let's just
name some tools that we know of.

Ansel Suite.

Ansel Suite is not AI.

Ansel

Zac: Suite's a not

Adam: at all.

Nope, at all.

No AI used.

Really?

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

They promote it.

Well then use

Zac: that, folks.

Adam: Yeah.

Um- But I worry- Alexander- I worry
some, some l- I, I, I just believe,

just, uh, this is my opinion, this
is not even me trying to defend.

I believe, unfortunately, that AI
in some capacity is going to seep

in to- Yes, because some- … um,
mainstream Dungeons & Dragons.

Zac: Okay, I mean this with all due
respect, just kidding, disrespectfully.

Some fucking half-ass loser, put the
explicit thing on our, on this one.

Some loser is going to say,
"Okay, I can be a dungeon master.

Hey, ChatGPT, give me a prompt
for a one-year campaign."

Adam: Yes, there is a, there…

So, so that's exactly
what I'm talking about.

There is, um, there's an AI called
Lorefi There's an AI out there.

Um, I think Obsidian will eventually
get into AI, which will be-

Zac: Terrible

… Adam: detriment to all you
guys that use Obsidian.

So if you need a alternative
to Obsidian, use Amsel Suite.

Um, uh, I know that-

Zac: Well, what kind
of programs are those?

For those who are listening
that might not- Oh,

Adam: yeah.

So we haven't even-- I-- We need
to do a whole video on Amsel Suite

anyways and a whole podcast about 'em.

Amsel Suite was a Kickstarter back
in 2022 that I had discovered.

Um, they…

It's basically a Wikipedia for your
D&D campaign, similar to Obsidian,

but they make it like a Wikipedia page
where you can, you have what's called

Tome and you have what's called Lore,
and those two systems work together.

Tome is where you end up creating
your story, um, and your campaign.

Lore is where you end up having, like,
your Wikipedia articles over this god

does this specifically, and you can
reference each other inside of there.

They currently have a
Kickstarter going on.

You can go back it, and
they've added two new programs.

Um, I believe one is called, um, it's
called Harp, um, and that is music-based,

and they've partnered with some
musical, um, talented artists out there.

Mm.

And they end up, um, they are
ending up using that as, like…

You can use it within Tome and Lore
to bring music into your campaigns.

Um, and the other one is
a more organized system.

I cannot remember for the life of
me what it was- Well, I'm saying

like- … off the top of my head.

But that's Amsel Suite as a shortened-

Zac: So Obsidian, these
are all, like, helping-

Adam: Organizational tools.

Okay.

Obsidian is a organizational

Zac: thing.

That's, that's where I think AI
is going, and y- like, here's

your defense point, right?

I think AI is gonna be used more if it
gets integrated with, God forbid, D&D.

Adam: Yeah.

It'll be into the organizational part.

' Zac: Cause I, I have a feeling, it
has not been confirmed nor denied

that I know of at this moment, D&D
Beyond, I have a feeling they're-

Adam: Yeah, in the background.

Zac: 100% in some way, shape, or form.

Adam: And that's unfortunate.

Zac: Wizards of the Coast, the
fucking source material is using AI.

Like that-

Adam: Yeah.

There, there is an AI out there that
I've seen ads for called LoreFi,

and LoreFi is like a single player
D&D campaign you can have with,

uh, an AI assistant or whatever.

You can have chats and make decisions,
and then the AI generates its answer.

That's LoreFi.

Um, there are sound AIs out there
that people use and that proponent

and, and brought to light.

Um, and I do know some dungeon
masters actually do use that one,

uh, for sound quality and stuff-
Well- … 'cause they can't figure out

in through their millions of Spotify
things, they can't figure out what-

Zac: It's just regurgitated assets though.

Oh, yeah.

That's all this is.

Like, anytime it spits out a story
for you to tell, regurgitated from the

internet from thousands of other people.

Adam: Now, what do we think about
if the AI is, like, generating,

like a generator of a, of a sort?

Um, like- That's what I'm talking
about … like a name generator-

No … a, um- They've got name generators

I don't know, a city generator
Things of that nature.

Zac: No.

Still not.

Hell no.

' Adam: Cause I know those exist too.

Zac: That's…

Well, yeah, but you can go…

Okay,

Adam: so- But what I'm af- what's
gonna happen is they're gonna go up

to the top of the list rather than
using Don John or something like

that, that we normally use for those.

Well, I'm

Zac: saying like, okay, so say you're
not naming your cit- okay, if you're

not naming your cities, there's already
a big red flag right there as a DM.

If you can't name your cities
after you give them character

and depth, there is a problem.

Now, you need to name your, your John
Doe NPC who's gonna be a one-off,

okay, then name him John Doe.

I'd really rather someone
give them a stupid name.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: Like a very silly, obscene,
obscure, whatever defining

adjective you wanna give it.

Mm-hmm.

That's fine.

Give them a really stupid name rather
than just give some random generated

BS that's gonna take up five gallons
of water just to give you a damn name.

Like that-- I'm serious.

Like, you are a DM.

Take pride in that.

Like, if you're a dungeon master, you're
already stating to your players…

I hit the table, Adam.

I am sorry.

You will hear that on the recording.

Um, if you're a DM, you're making an oath,
a pledge to your players that you're gonna

give them your entire creative capability
while trying to pertain to their, uh,

entertainment and their enjoyment.

If you're taking away your own
aspects, your own flair to it, you're

taking away the whole point of DMing.

You're taking away the human creativity.

You're taking away the adventure,
the whimsy, the wonder, the,

the, the obscurities of what
a, a, a campaign should have.

You're taking that away.

You're stripping it down to nothing.

Adam: All right, so here's
some top results for-

Zac: Oh,

Adam: God … AI tools that exist in our
world of Dungeons- Already …& Dragons.

Already, yeah.

Mm.

Zac: Okay.

Adam: So.

Zac: Drop it.

Adam: All right.

Let me tell you about
the tools used in, uh- Do

Zac: tell

… Adam: AI.

Um, one, uh, so there's VTTs,
which are virtual tabletops.

Zac: Oh, that's D&D
Beyond right off the bat.

Adam: Roll20, Foundry, things like that,
but they don't use AI, uh, supposedly.

Um, the, the Wizards of the
Coast has announced they avoid

using generative AI internally.

Zac: Hey, good for them then.

But do they?

But do they?

I

Adam: mean- But do they?

Yeah.

Zac: We know how greedy these bastards

Adam: are.

Until they mess up and then, yeah.

Zac: We know how great…

We know you

Adam: got

" Zac: Magic the Gathering."

Adam: So there's a, there's
an AI called Quest Portal.

Um, it's a VTT that integrates an AI
rules assistant directly into your games.

Uh, it features rollable sheets, dynamic
chats, and import templates for "D&D 5E."

Uh, we have Archivist AI, and that
is to streamline a DM's workflow

by organizing lore, transcribing
sessions, integrating directly with

Foundry VTT to keep game notes handy.

What do you think about that one?

Zac: Okay, here's what-

Adam: So, so it's listening to
you and transcribing it, and

then it gives you a summary at

Zac: the end.

Because it's just gonna regurgitate it.

Whatever software they're using,
that, that's made to intermingle

with other players' campaigns.

They're gonna use structures and
strategies to, to base, uh, more

information how they organize stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

When we're com- when we're combing
down to the, the bare of this all,

when we're getting to the bone
of what this is, tool AI, right?

Like a rule statistic or like a
rule, basically a fact checker-

Adam: Mm-hmm

… Zac: right?

On, on the D&D.

Like what, what do I
need to roll for this?

It can save you time, but some of the
best conversations come from when you're

trying to do the legalities of D&D.

Adam: Yeah.

That's why I give a two-minute rule.

Yeah.

If you can't find it-

Zac: Okay.

Like, okay, yeah.

I mean, the D- the DM should know
most of this, but if you don't-

Adam: It's fun to go find.

Zac: Yeah.

I mean, talk to your players.

Um- That's where some of the fun rule of

Adam: cool stuff happens … there's
a couple of world-building

AIs and prep assistants.

Um-

Zac: Hell no.

World b- building AIs, burn them down.

Adam: Uh, one's called World Anvil.

Zac: Nope.

Adam: And- Burn it down … um,
it's a highly integrated AI tool.

It helps you write lore, manage NPCs, and
build comprehensive interconnected worlds

without- I genuinely- … prep burnout.

Zac: Nope.

I genuinely hate every
fucking thing that stands for.

Adam: And then the other one is
called Gin- Kenji's Game Master Tools.

It generates encounter-ready monster
stat blocks, playable dungeons,

and complete structured settings.

Zac: Kenji, get the fuck away from me.

That's what I'm gonna say.

Adam: And the other top choice
is Everweave, and this is

a solo play in mechanics.

It's an AI-powered D&D service designed
to play without a human dungeon master.

Zac: Okay.

So, yeah, no.

Adam: It purports to offer dynamic
storytelling with integrated 5E

mechanics, dice rolls, character
leveling, and long-term memory system.

What are you- And that was from-
No … Google's AI results.

Zac: Wow.

Adam: So yeah, I had to use it.

Zac: Used AI to get AI.

Yep.

Great, Adam.

You're welcome.

Thanks for really-

Adam: You're welcome on that

Zac: nailing down your stance on this.

Um, I'm just kidding.

Adam: But it's also on
the top results that-

Zac: I, uh, I will tell
you this … are on there.

If you use AI for any kind
of creative aspect- It's

Adam: bad … of your campaign.

I will say, just as a personal opinion,
just looking into it, it's bad.

AI, the AI stuff that tries to
generate D&D things, it's just- What,

Zac: you

Adam: gotta-

it's just bad.

But it, it, but the, the thing is,
unfortunately, is it's only bad today.

It is getting better by
the day, unfortunately, and

that's the scary thing, is-

Zac: The how much of a sh- like,
uh, influence this is about to

have- Yeah … on, on the world.

Uh, 'cause we know AI slop gets
thrown out day by day, and it's- It's

Adam: not even about AI slop anymore.

It's taking jobs away because they
don't need data analysts anymore,

'cause they can just throw a spreadsheet
at AI and it analyzes it- It's not

Zac: only killing jobs- … in 10
seconds … it's killing the arts.

It's also killing our planet.

And don't get me down that rabbit hole.

'Cause the inner druid in me
wants to really fucking burn,

burn corporations to the ground.

This is gonna be a very explicit episode.

I am very passionate about hating AI.

Yep.

But you know what?

I'll, I'll even, I'll shoot myself
in the foot by saying that, because I

have one guilty pleasure in this world.

There are the dark fantasy videos I'm
on TikTok with the trend, with the hi-

hide, you know, the by, by the Dorian
concept, and it's the music and the AI.

I'm a slut for those.

But I try to watch those montages
with actual movies like "Beastmaster,"

"Conan the Barbarian" or stuff, but,

Adam: um- "Labyrinth," "Dark Crystal."

Zac: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

"Dark Crystal," "Never-" You know.

" Adam: Labyrinth."

Zac: Yeah, like, I mean, all of that.

Adam: The Jim Henson Company.

Zac: Yes, literally.

Adam: Um, s- so…

Zac: Go for it.

Adam: I'm gonna throw up.

I'm gonna throw up saying this.

Some, some pros of
artificial- There are no

Zac: pros.

Adam: Pro- Let me, let me get my side in.

There's pros- I, I- … of
artificial intelligence.

No.

I'm crying now.

Uh.

I'm

Zac: crying

Adam: internally.

Gods, forgive me.

Um-

Zac: I hope you get

Adam: smited … it saves prep time.

You can

Zac: help- That's the fun in it.

Adam: You can help overcome
your writer's block.

Zac: Oh my God.

If you need that to help overcome your
writer's block, you are a shitty writer.

I'm sorry.

Adam: It is also really good for
improvisation if you're terrible at it.

Zac: Improvising?

Adam: Yeah.

Zac: Well, if you're terrible
at it, you need to learn.

Adam: You need to do linear
campaigns, our previous episode.

Zac: Go,

Adam: go

Zac: watch that.

Yeah.

Listen to "Sandbox
versus Linear Campaigns."

Give you an idea.

No, you know what?

I have a rebuttal for that.

I do.

Go ahead.

Adam: Keep going.

And it makes dungeon masters
more accessible for beginners.

Zac: Hell no to all of it.

Go to a local game store, get out of
your comfort zone, watch videos on

YouTube about other groups playing.

Reach out to your friends,
try it out with them.

Guess what?

As a DM, you're meant to fail.

You're meant to have sessions that are
gonna make you uncomfortable as a DM.

They are, uh, you-

Adam: You have some people
that just don't care, Zach

Zac: Get the fuck out of my hobby then.

Okay.

Adam: I mean, honestly,

Zac: you just- No, no, no, no, no.

I know.

It's, it's a whole take.

I have to, I have to be realistic.

Adam: Some people just don't care.

Zac: There are people
who are not gonna care.

Adam: And they're gonna use these

Zac: tools.

And they're gonna be bad DMs.

They're going to use these tools.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: And guess what?

That's what's going to
separate the community.

It really is.

Mm-hmm.

It's going to say, "Well, I use the…"

You know, players are gonna start…

There are, 'cause this is gonna happen
regardless of if we want it to or not.

Players are gonna say- It's here.

Yeah, it's here.

Literally.

Adam: You've opened Pandora's box

Zac: and- Congratulations.

There is no hope now.

Adam: The tube of toothpaste
has been squoze out and you-

Zac: Squoze

Adam: out?

Yep, squoze out.

Zac: Squoze out.

Adam: Yep.

Zac: That's an AI word right there.

Um-

Adam: You'd be surprised.

Adam's been AI the whole time.

Zach's been talking to
himself this whole time.

Yes,

Zac: this whole time Adam's
been an AI construct of a voice.

Um-

Adam: We uploaded his vocal cords.

Zac: Yeah, his, yeah.

His brain's in a jar somewhere.

Um, I'll say it like this.

That's what's gonna drive the community
apart, because there are gonna be

people who do not care, and they're
gonna say, "Hey, this is gonna save

me time, and I can still deliver a
relatively objectively good campaign."

And guess what?

I'm sure AI can spit that out,
because it's using the ideas

and stories of real humans.

It's regurgitating stuff that
has been told, and it's just

weaving it in a different way.

Mm-hmm.

That's all it's doing.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: It's not coming up with anything new.

It's seeing what algorithms, what
happens, how it was structured across

the entire deep dark web, and it's
making its own little story about

it, while taking away from- Mm-hmm

the human creativity.

Adam: People just don't care.

Zac: And then players are gonna start
saying, "Well, AI's not really bad."

And then they're gonna integrate more,
and it's gonna start with a sliver,

a small seedling of an idea, and
it's gonna grow into- If you give a

Adam: mouse a cookie.

Zac: It's going to grow
into disastrous kudzu.

Kudzu.

It's going to consume everything.

And, uh-

Adam: Some people don't have kudzu.

They don't know what that is.

Zac: Okay.

Kudzu is a invasive plant that was
brought from Asia, if I'm not mistaken-

Mm-hmm … over to the southern
states to control certain weeds.

Adam: Erosion.

Zac: Erosion.

Uh, soil erosion.

Yep.

That's right.

Not, not weed, soil erosion.

But then what it ended up doing,
it became a weed, and it would

literally grow on trees, everywhere.

It would grow in any climate.

Yep.

And it started killing local vegetation.

Well, if you kill local vege-
vegetation, you kill local fauna.

And when that happens,
you fuck up the ecosystem.

Anyway, point is, AI's gonna start
doing that to the D&D community.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: It's already doing that- It's already
here … it's doing it to our planet.

It's gonna do it to our favorite thing.

So I will stand against it day one.

Adam: So how can we use AI effectively?

Zac: Don't use it.

That's how you use it effectively.

You, you tell those mega corporations- You

Adam: treat it as a codeine,

Zac: guys

to lick my chili ring, and you,
you tell them to squander off.

You tell them to get lost.

You, you hit the road, Jack, and you
don't come back no more, no more, no more.

You used

Adam: your AI for inspiration.

Zac: Don't

Adam: Just, just inspiration, not final,

Zac: final answers … don't show
up to my table, I will literally

kick your ass out of my house.

Adam: Do not- Blend your AI

deas.

See, see what I did there?

A- A- AI

deas.

Artificially- That, that came-
… intelliHance … from my brain.

That came from my brain.

You like that one?

Yeah, it did.

That's…

Now I gotta use that one now.

Let me tell AI real quick to do

Zac: it.

No, no, no, no, don't do that.

Okay, uh, where we stand.

Yeah, Adam, you had to take the lesser,
uh, the more of two evils today,

'cause this one's not even evil, it's

Adam: just- I drew the
short end of the stick.

AI, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm
trying to say AI is good-

Zac: It's not

… Adam: it's not.

But if I'm trying to take the opposing
thing, yes, it is less prep time.

It is less summarizing.

It makes things streamlined,
um, but you lose the-

Zac: Human interaction

… Adam: yeah, you lose the lack of
creativity in AI when you use it.

Zac: What made…

I'll say, I'll s- I'll state
my entire stance on this.

What makes Dungeons & Dragons so memorable
and so magical between the players

and dungeon masters, and community
as a whole, is the fact that we have

this human connectivity, and there are
usually battles of good versus evil

a- and this sense of a common goal.

Throwing AI in there to write your stories
for you or to make these grand adventures,

you're taking away the human aspect.

And to do that is to, to, to take
away the very soul and the very magic

that made D&D such a lovable game.

Adam: So yeah, we don't use AI
in "Tales of the Broken Realms."

Zac: Not in my house.

Adam: Zach would kill us,
because this is Zach's story.

Zac: This…

Bro, if your story has AI, you get to…

I'm g- me and you gonna have a long talk.

Adam: Hmm?

Zac: I say if your story
uses AI, 'cause you- What, my

Adam: season two story?

Zac: You enhanced…

You emphasized me.

In my story, I don't use AI.

Adam: No, I was just saying, like, in
"Tales of the Broken Realm" in general.

In

Zac: general.

Adam: Yeah, but I'm saying it's
your storyline that you have.

Zac: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Okay, okay.

I got- That's what I was meaning

a little scared real quick.

I was about to say tavern tussle here.

Adam: A tavern tussle.

' Zac: Cause we about to-

Adam: Tussle our taverns

… Zac: no, not like that,

Adam: Big Dog.

Uh, but yes, um, we, uh…

I will say me and Zach have been
guilty of using AI in the past.

Zac: Yeah.

We

Adam: have.

Zac: I mean, before we knew, like-

Adam: Before we knew the- The severity

the effects.

And it was very early on
into our, I would say-

Zac: I, I think we had that same, uh,
blissful ignorance that most people did.

Adam: Yeah.

Zac: And since it- Or some still do.

Adam: Yes.

But- Like,

Zac: I mean, nobody knew the
what Y- y- we didn't really look

at the grand scheme of things.

We looked at like-

Adam: No, we know, it was so new
that it was just fun, uh, 'cause

we didn't know what was going on.

Yeah.

But now, now their plans have been
revealed and we're like, "Yeah, we know."

We- We just realized what it's
doing … we reject, we reject the idea.

Zac: Get away from me.

Adam: Um, but unfortunately we're guilty
of using it when, in the past, so, uh,

w- you know, we're not perfect, but
n- we're no longer supporting that.

Zac: I'm pretty perfect.

Adam: Moving on.

Um, so here's a community
question before we close out.

Do you use AI at your table?

Please let us know.

Zac: Don't.

I will curse

Adam: you.

Zach will cry.

Zach will do one- I'm not

Zac: gonna, I'm not gonna

Adam: cry.

I'm gonna be like- Zach, Zach will
do one crunch- I am a mean- … per

person that says that they use AI.

Zac: One crunch?

Adam: Yeah, one crunch.

Zac: Do you think I can't do crunches?

Do you realize what I…

I'm built like a meatball.

I can do crunches all day.

Adam: I wasn't saying you-

Zac: It hurts.

It hurts very bad.

Adam: So anyways, guys, I hope you
enjoyed the pros and cons of using AI.

Please don't use AI.

Um, uh, that's just silly-
Don't use it … to use.

Um, again, we're, we were all guilty,
I'm sure at one point when you listen

to this, that we used AI in something.

Zac: Some capacity.

Adam: Um, but you know, at the
end of the day, we are humans.

We were made to create.

Create it yourself.

Zac: And with that being said,
may your adventures be ever

legendary without the use of AI.

Until next time, take
care, take care, guys.

Maybe I need AI to fix my voice.

Take care, guys.

Adam: Also, don't forget, you can
find us, uh, at TikTok @tavern talks,

Instagram @tavern talkspod, Threads
@tavern talkspod, X @tavern talks podcast.

Thanks, guys.

Enjoy the rest of your day.