Tavern Talks

Adam: Well met, adventurers, and welcome
back to the "Tavern Talks" podcast.

I'm Adam, your lovable host, and
with me is the ever short Zach.

Zac: I'm Zach.

Hi, guys.

I'm Zach with "Tavern Talks," and
today we're gonna be figuring out if

you're diving into a digital dungeon
or creating a tangible tabletop.

Adam: So, our discussion today starts
off with digital versus in-person.

What are we to do about it as dungeon
masters throughout, as we advance-

Zac: You're trying there, aren't you?

Adam: Hmm.

As we advance through human civilization,
is "D&D" becoming too digital?

Zac: There he goes.

He got it.

So pull up a chair, grab a tankard,
and let's take a look at the

digital world of "D&D" versus
the actual physical game itself.

Adam: Welcome back to
"Tavern Talks" podcast.

All right.

Zach, do you use digital tools in "D&D"?

Zac: I do.

Adam: Okay.

Zac: I actually enjoy

Adam: it.

Do you use AI tools in "D&D"?

Zac: I think we just

Adam: discussed this.

Check our, check, check
our, uh- Check out the AI.

Uh- The AI episode.

Zach's, uh, most explicit
content over there.

Zac: I'm sorry.

I can't beep

Adam: Stan Lee.

That's fine.

Okay.

That's fine.

All right.

So, um, did you know that over half of
all "D&D" games are played digitally?

Zac: Honestly, that would not
surprise me in the slightest.

Adam: Would not.

I think COVID really
caused a schism there.

I mean, I

Zac: think that's like when Critical Role-

Adam: Schism.

Schism.

What is- Schism?

No, schism.

Oh.

Like, like divide.

What is that called?

Oh.

Divide and

Zac: conquer?

Adam: No.

Just what, what's that word?

Schism.

Schism.

Is it schism?

Zac: I believe it's schism.

Adam: Yeah, you know
what I'm trying to say.

Zac: Schism

Adam: We'll have the AI
transcribe that later.

Zac: Oh my God.

You're gonna give me a schism.

Adam: Anyways, um, so yeah, I have
done in person, I have done online.

I've used virtual tabletops.

I have used VTTs
throughout the whole time.

We used VTTs in our home,
uh, our home campaigns.

Um, and then now Tales of the Broken
Realms, we actually use Theater

of the Mind and just Discord.

Um, I don't know necessarily
what's better or worse.

I think visuals are nice, and I
think having VTTs help- is helpful.

Yeah.

Um, but also it's real fun to make maps
and stuff in front of people, so…

Zac: That's sick.

Um, I do digital because I don't have A,
the space to do f- like a physical game.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: Like gathering of people.

Or

Adam: friends to do physical game that are

Zac: close.

Hey, you don't, you don't have
to call me out like that, Adam.

Okay?

That, that feels a little personal.

Adam: You have me, it's okay.

Zac: Okay.

Adam: We can have a

Zac: two-person campaign.

Well, that doesn't make
my situation any better.

No, you may

Adam: not…

Y- y- you, you find friends online.

You, you've, you're
more in tune with them.

Zac: It is…

I will say, like your, your physical
games, unless you have a really tight-knit

group of friends that are able to kinda
get, meet together and play and you have

a space to play, um, your, your physical
games are gonna be at your game stores

Adam: Yeah.

Um, I would say if you're
looking for the in-person, go

to the, go to the game stores.

Um-

Zac: That's gonna be a group of
randoms though, more than likely.

Adam: Yeah.

I mean, they're randoms
until they're your friends.

Zac: Correct.

I mean, hey, if you wanna
make friends, go for it.

But, um-

Adam: There is a live service style that
they're trying to purs- pursue though.

Zac: Oh, yeah?

Adam: Yeah.

I don't know how I feel about that though.

Zac: Who's that with?

D&D-

Adam: It's just…

Yeah, it's not even like D…

It's just in general, the push for
subscription and live service games.

Zac: We're just gonna get right
back to ground rules with cable,

like how we do with cable.

Mm-hmm.

We pay so, so many subscriptions,
we're almost at the cost of cable.

Yeah.

I'll say it like this, digital, the
digital aspect, like once again, I don't

have the time, space, materials, or money
to create some of these maps I want you

guys to explore, but like kinda how I
did, and I'm using "Tales of the Broken

Realms," and unfortunately, I wish- What a

Adam: plug.

Zac: Huh?

Adam: What a plug.

Zac: What a plug?

Adam: Yeah.

Zac: How I plugged in- Yeah.

Mm-hmm

… " Adam: Tales of the Broken Realm"?

Zac: Well, with, with my
campaigning style, on Discord- You

Adam: need visuals

… Zac: I, I give you-

Adam: I was gonna suggest in season
two that we start using a VTT,

but I was gonna discuss with you.

That's what I

Zac: use.

Adam: No, no, no, like a actual,
like all of us use a VTT.

Zac: Like all connect to a

Adam: VTT?

Mm-hmm.

Zac: Yeah, we probably can.

Adam: There's that one multiverse one
that's kinda like a pixelated world.

Zac: Well, I think that should be per
the DM, 'cause our whole thing, we can't-

Adam: Yes.

Uh-

Zac: We can't live in anybody's
world … I was gonna, I think

Adam: I was gonna start

Zac: out with it and see how

Adam: it went.

Yeah, we could try.

Um, I

Zac: use maps and a lot of these
digital tools to kinda give you a

better picture of things, 'cause
I do like the theater of mind.

That's how we have to
play 90% of the time.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: Digital's gonna be my
best friend in this case.

Adam: Yep.

Zac: Uh, physical I would do if I had the-

Adam: I would do physical in
a heartbeat over digital just-

Zac: Oh, 100%.

Adam: personally, I love our
minis that we have, um- We

Zac: got the minis, we got the,
we got the set pieces, dude.

Adam: We got m- yeah, we have
Ender Toys' giant wizard's tower.

Welcome

Zac: to the second

Adam: round.

We have Corvid Arts', uh, 2D
wooden minis that are fun to paint.

Zac: Even, I would say, uh,
Curations by Kira, like-

Adam: Oh, yeah

… Zac: we can still use parts of

Adam: it.

Plenty, plenty of DM screens for that.

I mean, we use that for our content
videos, but I would definitely use

the DM screen from Curations by Kira.

Curations.

Yeah, Curations.

Mm-hmm.

We have plenty of partners with us
that gives us physical items for D&D.

Um, they are in a certain niche out
there that I appreciate and try to

promote as much as possible, because
they do a good job at what they have.

Um, I think also having the
physicality of, of touch and

body language and- Like touch?

Uh, uh, it's more so like you would…

You're able to interact with the group
as well as the dice and the table.

Um, yous can read body
language really well.

You can really…

You almost lose…

You almost go into, like, a flow
state, I think, most of the time when

you are not in front of a screen.

I

Zac: also think that the physical aspect
of it kinda helps you follow the rules.

A

Adam: little better, yeah.

Zac: Well, like, your movement speed.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: Huge when it comes to the actual
core mechanics of D&D, but, like, with

ours, Th-Theater of the Mind, we don't…

I mean, even in a lot of the campaigns
that, you know, Caleb, Scott, Sam,

Grace, they've all run, it's not
super s- in terms of structure-

Adam: It was never structured that way.

I will say in some behind-the-DM scenes
for me, when I do, um, the Theater of

the Mind but with movement speeds and
stuff, I actually do have a grid in

front of me with little- Just so you
remember … with little chess pieces-

Zac: Yeah,

Adam: and- … to keep up with that, so
I can describe to y'all where you are,

'cause my mental image is something
different than what y'all think.

Correct.

So, I have a little grid and chess
pieces in front of me, and I can tell

you where you are- 'Cause if we're doing-
… 'cause each one is a chess piece.

Zac: Yeah, if we're doing
mental images, like who's where-

Adam: Mm-hmm

… Zac: it does make everything- And

Adam: that builds up during combat a lot.

Zac: Exactly.

I think the physical aspect of, of
meeting in person, having an actual

tabletop, a battle mat or, or, you
know, a grid section, uh, minis and

all that, that does give you a better
idea of who's where, what's where.

I think where digital allows a little bit
more freedom is the settings can change

in- You go through a portal, guess what?

You're in a new place.

Adam: Yeah.

Zac: And you can change that.

Whereas in person, you have to set
the- Yeah … to set the table.

Adam: Yeah.

And I think a combination
of both is kind of the-

Zac: A necessary evil.

Adam: Yes.

I mean, I don't think digital tools
are harming Dungeons & Dragons.

I think it's more efficient, um, and, and-

Zac: I think it makes

Adam: it more accessible.

Yes.

It's, it's more accessible, but it's
more, I would say, efficient, where

you're not spending as much time on
tracking hit points, tracking where the

people are, 'cause you have a physical…

You don't have to have the
physicality of w- trying to picture

where they are on the table.

You're not having to waste
the time to lean across.

You just move them on the screen, if
you use a VTT or something like that.

If you use Theater of Mind, you
can just tell them where they are.

Um, I, I use plenty of digital tools
out there, random generators for

different things, um, especially some
random city generators out there that

are fun to use just to get an idea
of how big the city- Are they AI?

I don't believe so, 'cause
they've been around before AI, but

they've n- now may use AI tools.

I'm not for sure, 'cause
I haven't- Be careful.

Well, I haven't done a
campaign in a long time, so…

Zac: Well, you got to tell your story,
but you named those legitimately.

Adam: Yes.

Zac: So- Well, to be fair.

Adam: You named them.

Zac: Yeah.

I did name them.

Adam: So I haven't had to worry about
where and what and how, but, you know,

I use Incarnate to basically build the
map, but now we're gonna be start using

Fractal Terrain and, uh, ca- uh, Campaign
Cartographer, um, because that uses no AI.

Uh- Ooh … I believe Incarnate
is starting to in the background.

Well, burn

Zac: them out of your memory,

Adam: you stupid- And they charge,
they charge a lot, too, but

Zac: Inc- Also terrible.

Adam: Yes.

Um, so digital tools out there, there are
some that are, have a subscription to it.

I do not subscribe to D&D Beyond.

Um, Zach does.

I do.

So he can tell you a little more about
how that works for you and what is

useful for that money going towards that.

I just don't see a use case
to spend my money there.

Zac: Um, okay, I'll tell you what I really
like, because I'm somebody who can't

afford a new die set every campaign.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: Um, I only have a very limited
number of dice, and most people

dice.

Yes, I'm also a guy with many
ADHD-filled hobbies, gaming,

collectibles, comic books, so on and
so forth, weapons, you know, whatever.

Um, dice is not my numero uno priority.

D&D Beyond, they have a dice scale,
and is it kind of annoying sometimes?

Did it, did I realize it picked
up on our audio sometimes in,

in Tales of the Broken Realms?

Yeah, I did.

I didn't realize it did, but it did.

They have dice, uh, tools for you to use.

You can roll as many D6,
D10s, D20s, D100s as you need.

I think also the unlimited amount of
character sheets and the seamless…

How it's very easy to
create a character on that.

Mm-hmm.

Now, I will say if you use
any kind of additional…

Like the, the one thing Wizards
of the Coast does poorly is the

fact that you have to buy the
digital copy to actually have it.

Adam: Yeah.

Even though if you have
that physical- Yeah … it

Zac: doesn't

Adam: matter.

It's double booked.

Zac: But see, there's a
easy workaround for that.

I just don't think people like it, is
that you can, you can make a custom item.

Yep.

And you can do it just the same way.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um, you know, there's…

I've discovered so many other
digital tools out there that kinda

just replace D&D Beyond for me.

If I wanna create a character, I'm gonna
go over to More Purple More Better, and-

Zac: Or Kobold Fight Club.

Adam: I mean, that's just to create
encounters and stuff, but, like-

Yeah … if I really wanna do a, uh, a
character, I'll create it off of More

People More Better sheets and stuff,
'cause that's a whole GitHub page.

Zac: And that's fair.

Like,

Adam: I mean- Um, and uses Adobe … I'm

Zac: not, I'm not-

Adam: I mean, you've seen the, the-

Zac: Yeah

… Adam: the thing, and it's really cool
'cause it, it includes all the material.

You don't have to go out
there and try to find it.

I'm not- You don't have to
buy the, the book for it.

Zac: Yeah.

I'm not, I'm not opposed to those.

I'm not saying-
Yeah … they're not good tools.

I think they're much better tools in
a lot of ways, but I think it, it's

because D&D Beyond does condense it
and kinda conform all the info in one

area, and I do kinda just like the
fact that it has an official site that-

Adam: Yeah

… Zac: it's very easily, in terms,
like you can navigate it very easily.

You can also have access to your own map
creations, all, kinda all in one area.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: I don't wanna go to one
site and then go to another site.

Yeah.

You don't wanna go

Adam: to the multiple-

Zac: I'm not, I'm not- … different
content … I'm not trying to

create- You just want a one
place … multiple versions of D&D.

Adam: Yeah.

You want

Zac: one

Adam: place.

Zac: Yeah.

I'm, I like it compact
and- Yep … in one area.

I gotcha.

And sure, maybe it has limitations,
but you can find workarounds.

Yeah.

I think that's where my, my point
would go, is that it is very…

You gotta…

What?

Adam: Finish your thought.

Zac: My thought's finished.

Adam: Okay.

So do you think the more we move digital,
the in-person is slowly gonna go away?

Zac: No.

Adam: No?

Zac: I'll say it like, uh, I've seen
this said, like you are always going

to want a physical copy of something.

That's why card collecting's so
popular, comic book collecting.

Like yes, these are dwindling
markets, but people…

It's never gonna be extinguished.

Yeah.

It's never gonna be completely…

It, it's not going to go on an
extinction level event here where

people are just gonna stop doing it.

The, the magic of D&D, the, the joy of
it comes from being with friends and then

doing all this crazy stuff, like these
crazy adventures, these daring escapes-

Mm-hmm … these heroic escapades.

Um, the shenanigans you get up to.

That, that in-person, those in-person
sessions will never go away.

Yes, digital will bec- it will become
more of a niche, I believe, that in-person

sessions will re- But in terms of
completely exasperated where they're just

non-existent, no, it's not gonna happen.

Digital will reign supreme probably.

It's just accessibility.

I mean, most people aren't able to, like
we talked about earlier, they're not

able to get with friends every other day.

Adam: Yeah.

So they can- They're not

Zac: able to

Adam: drive out to- Yeah.

They'll go to the, the
digital world and find- Then

Zac: what we would-

Adam: I, I will say there's so
many digital tools out there, and I

think I've just been around for so
long that I know which ones work.

But for a new person, I feel like
they would just get very easily

overwhelmed with how much digital
tools are out there and which ones

to use and which ones to avoid.

Um, we have a whole video over
our, um, I wouldn't say top digital

tools, just tools that we have used
in the past that we give a pass to.

Um, there are better tools out there.

You just gotta do some digging, but
they can overwhelm a dungeon master,

so just be careful about that.

Um, you also have to worry about constant
updates to the rules, constant updates

to the material that you're using,
and then, you know, are you a content

manager as a dungeon master or are you
a storyteller trying to maintain all

the digital tools that are out there?

I think that's something that you
gotta worry about at the-- and find a

happy medium between the two of them.

Um, the other thing that I don't like
what's happening is D&D's becoming

very seasons oriented, um, similar
to like Marvel Rivals seasons and

Fortnite seasons and- What do you

Zac: mean by that, Adam?

Adam: Well, and like I said, like
Fortnite has chapters and seasons and-

Zac: Well, yeah,

Adam: but- … Magic: The
Gathering has seasons and

booster pack specific crossovers.

You, you're

Zac: talking about like specific what
comes out of Wizards of the Coast-

Adam: Yes

… Zac: D&D

Adam: room?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Zac: Okay.

Adam: That- As a digital thing s- That

Zac: makes sense.

Adam: Yeah, because I wor- I worry
that a lot of DMs feel like they

have to keep up with the trends.

Zac: No, you do not.

That's why homebrew ends up being better.

Adam: Always.

Zac: That's its own thing.

Like I, I could go into my own stories
about that or my own beliefs about

homebrew versus actual lore stuff.

Um, perfect blend of the two because
I don't think you should be able

to pay 60 bucks to keep up with
the latest trend of D&D stuff.

Yeah.

That's not feasible for…

Look, some nerds are rich and that's cool,
but some nerds are also broke like me.

So, you know, do the basics.

Adam: Yeah.

So I'm just worried that D&D's kinda
gonna go down that, that same pathway

because it's a money maker for them.

Zac: Dude, that's been a…

Wizards of the Coast is greedy.

Adam: Yep.

Zac: Okay.

Adam: I agree.

I just, just for you fellow dungeon
masters out there, just be mindful of

that, um, when you're going into, um,
trying to keep up with the trends,

trying to keep up with the books,
trying to keep up with what the new 5.5E

is and, and all of that.

Just find out what you like, what you
wanna use, and go from there, I think

is, uh, perfectly acceptable for that.

Zac: Mind you, I'm looking at
right now as we speak, over $200

of books on your shelf right now.

That's only five books.

I mean, right now with their
price, no, but what they were-

Mm-hmm … when they dropped.

Adam: 35 bucks a piece.

Zac: 45.

Monster-

Adam: I bought them for 35.

Well,

Zac: you, hey, you got them at a deal.

That Monster Manual guide
cost me almost 50 bucks when

Adam: I got that.

Zac: Really?

'Cause I got it right when it came out.

Adam: Hmm.

Zac: That was a 20-

Adam: I get that

… Zac: maybe 23.

Adam: I mean, I have an original
Forgotten Realms second edition box set.

Zac: Yeah, that's a little bit-

Adam: But back in the day
that was just like $50.

Zac: I'm just saying what they charge
even on the digital aspect of it,

the digital's a little bit cheaper,

Adam: but- Mm-hmm.

Still ridiculous

… Zac: still a ridiculous price.

Like that's-

Adam: And there's plenty
of other books out there.

I mean, we're looking around our
studio here and, you know, we have

the "Ultimate Fantasy Creator."

Our studio.

We got "Dungeon Meisters
Random Monster Generator."

We got "The Ultimate RPG Game
Master's World Building Guide."

So there's books out there other than
just Wizards of the Coast that if

you want physical copies of something
to read- You can do that … by

the ma- by all means do that.

Um, but I do think the physicality of,
of certain aspects of D&D should remain.

I th- like you said, there's always gonna
be a collector out there for something.

I mean, I definitely want
that, um, dragon's head mount

for our wall in our studio.

Zac: Which one?

What

Adam: color?

Uh, the blue one.

Zac: You want blue dragon?

Adam: Okay.

I think, I think that one.

I think that one's cool.

The black dragon just reminds me of
red eyes black dragon too much, so.

' Zac: Cause of the horns.

Adam: Yeah.

Zac: Yeah.

Adam: Um- Really

but I mean, like, like you said, Ender's
Toys Wizard's Tower that we, that we were

able to review for 'em, I mean, that'd
be so cool to bring out in a D&D game.

Zac: Oh, yeah.

Dude, that'd be sick.

Are you kidding me?

Adam: So, I mean, there's a lot of
stuff out there that I just think as

a physical item is gonna be like, "Oh,
that's just cool to have" at that point.

And I think a lot of people feel
that way when they think about D&D

items nowadays, rather than, "Oh,
that's useful for my campaign."

It's more of a, "Oh, well,
that's just cool to have."

Um, and it's just kinda- I

Zac: always forget that we actually

Adam: got that somehow.

Yeah, I know.

The guys over at Ender are great.

Um, so again, it, it's not really which
one's better, it's just what fits your

needs as a D- dungeon master, as a player.

Um, don't be afraid to use digital
tools, just make sure you're not,

um, gonna go down the AI route, uh,
like we said in the previous episode.

Um- Just be

Zac: conscientious

Adam: of what you're using.

Yeah, what you're using.

Do some research 'cause they like
to hide AI in all kinds of things.

Yeah, they know their tricks.

Um, but with that being said, uh,
I think we did a great discussion

over digital versus physical
items in Dungeons & Dragons.

Are we moving away from the physical
world into the digital space?

Maybe.

Maybe.

Are we moving too fast?

Yes.

Zac: Yes.

Adam: Well, that is for
you to decide, listeners.

Please let us know on our socials
@taverntalkspod on Instagram,

@taverntalks on TikTok, or Threads
@taverntalkspod, or you can find

us over at X @taverntalkspodcast.

Um, that is all I gotta say about that,
and that's our digital little world that

we create, Zach- So … 'cause we are
content creators on the digital platforms.

Yeah.

Look at us

Zac: go.

So may your friends be plenty, your
internet connection be steady, and

your adventures be ever legendary.

See you next time.