Tavern Talks

Adam: Well met, adventurers, and welcome
back to the Tavern Talks podcast.

I'm Adam.

Zac: And I'm Zach.

Tonight we're diving into a classic
debate every dungeon master faces.

Do you like sandbox campaigns
or do you like linear campaigns?

Adam: Do you want your players to
be roaming freely across the Great

Plains, or do you want them to stay
within the story that you have crafted?

Zac: So in this episode, we're
gonna explore the pros and

I guess cons of both styles.

We're gonna share our personal
experiences, and we're gonna

give tips for running each type
of these campaigns successfully.

Adam: And also, we'll give you
a little insight to our current

project, Tales of the Broken Realms,
and how that's working out for us.

Zac: So pull up a chair, steady your
dice, and let's explore which path

or paths lead to the best adventure.

Adam: Welcome back to Tavern Talks.

Let's get started.

Okay.

Ladies and gents, we're talking
about Setting the stage.

Zac: How do we set the stage,

Adam: Adam?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know how we set the stage.

Um-

Zac: We're gonna keep it conversational.

Adam: It's gonna be tr- we're gonna

Zac: try to stay on topic.

And, and informative.

Adam: Our previous, uh,
ad-libbed session that we did

we decided to, uh, ad-lib some
more 'cause the people wanted it.

Zac: The people.

Adam: We give the people what they want.

Zac: We give the people what they want.

Adam: So we'll, we'll start out,
well, you gotta set up, well, what's

sandbox in your mind and what's,
you know, your own story-driven

focused DM, you know, one style?

Zac: Sandbox is where a cat shits.

Adam: Yeah.

Zac: Or a wild creature.

Adam: There's a lot of desert

Zac: for that.

Actually, that's what the
players do to a sandbox campaign.

They shit on it.

Adam: So do you prefer a sandbox or
do you prefer a linear campaign, Mr.

Storyteller?

Zac: Oh, yes.

Ask the storyteller, the guy who
writes, if he likes sandbox campaign

where all the freedom's given, or he
likes a linear campaign where there

is an, uh, point A and a point B.

Well, me personally, I
like a linear campaign.

It keeps everything condensed, nice.

You still give them enough freedom
to do some fun things, to get

some fun items, but you still
have them shackled to your story.

Adam: Okay.

All right.

Zac: Shackled is, shackled's strong.

Adam: Do you think my
campaign was sandboxy enough?

Zac: Is your campaign still with us?

Adam: No.

It is retired.

Zac: So there comes our first
con to sandbox campaigns, folks.

No, um-

Adam: Was it sandboxy
enough or did you feel

Zac: linear?

Uh, no, no, no, it was very…

You're, I will say when we did
do the, when we ran that campaign

It was extremely sandboxed.

I think there was like, obviously, uh-

Adam: Points to points.

Zac: Points, yeah, but you…

It was more like point A to point D.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: You didn't go A, B, C, D.

Yeah.

You didn't…

There's no s- sequential order of that.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: If that makes sense.

Like, your, uh, the
contingencies were there-

Adam: Mm-hmm

… Zac: for like what ifs.

Adam: Yeah.

I try to plan for…

I, I like what you say with A to D.

I more so think it's like A-1-2-3,
and then you get to the B.

Because you don't necessarily have to
find out one, two, or three in your

journey to, to B, but you will be able
to explore, give you some breadth.

Zac: I definitely believe you had
way more subplots than you figured

you would have, because I feel
like there was a lot of times…

I mean, and I know your DMing style.

You're more improv based.

You're do- you kind of go
with the flow kind of guy.

But there were so many times I know
for a fact you were ad-libbing,

like just going right off the dome.

Yeah.

And I was like, "Yeah, he didn't
plan for this one to go this way."

Not

Adam: one bit, but, but
hey, did you have fun?

Zac: Yeah, I had a good time.

I had a real good

Adam: time.

Yeah.

Well, that's all that matters.

But th- I prefer sandboxes, you prefer
linear, and I get that just because

I feel like you are so story driven-
Mm-hmm … uh, that you are trying to

tell the story and you're kind of…

Y- you have a goal in mind for your

Zac: players.

There's definitely a goal, but I, I
think where I leave it be, and I don't

wanna say fate, but roll of the die, um-
I, there is definitely like, there are

things that might not go my way in the
near future, 'cause I'm telling my part

right now in "Tales of the Broken Realms."

Fun fact for our listeners just
joining us, "Tales of the Broken

Realms" is available on Spotify
right now, episodes one through five.

Six?

One through six.

Adam: And by that point it'll be eight.

Zac: Probably one through eight.

Episodes are available on Spotify,
Apple Podcast, and any other

place you can listen to podcasts.

I

Adam: think Amazon Music too.

Zac: Amazon Music, possibly.

Anyway, um, in like in "Tales of
the Broken Realm," we're on my p-

we're on my segment now, right?

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: Obviously, there are things
that are not gonna go as planned.

Exhibit A, the trap.

The, the trap from hell,
the puzzle from hell.

Adam: It was a good puzzle.

Just you made one mistake and that
what is confused the whole puzzle.

I

Zac: understand.

I understand.

I understand.

Anyway…

Adam: We spent 45 minutes on that.

I had to edit all of that out.

Zac: Did you already edit?

Adam: Yeah.

Zac: Oh, dang.

I didn't realize you already edited

Adam: that.

Mm-hmm.

Zac: Yeah, so anyway, point is,
though, there's outcomes to this story.

I know like you know a little bit of
this going into it, not all of the,

you know, twists and turns, but you
know a little bit of it going in, you

know, in the endgame here of Season 1,
um, of "Tales of the Broken Realms."

This could go completely sideways and
derail the entire next three seasons.

Adam: Yeah, and that's
what's fun about it.

Zac: I know, but that's still not
technically following the, the sandbox.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: Uh, what's the word I'm looking for?

Adam: Freedom of a sandbox.

Zac: The freedom of a sandbox, the-

Adam: You know, I don't think "Tales
of the Broken Realms" necessarily would

be sandboxed anyways- I think it's a-

just based off the premise that we have
with multiple dungeon masters trying

to- There's- … tell their story.

There's a end goal by the end of
every dungeon master's, um, section.

Zac: I think that brings us to,
like, kind of the pros and cons-

Adam: Yeah

… Zac: uh, of what the sandbox
versus linear story is.

Yeah.

So- Like the, the freedom
of it, the chaos of it.

Adam: Yeah.

Um, probably the, the best thing about
sandboxes is it requires a lot of

improv, and that's what I'm decently
good at, so that's why I enjoy it.

And I enjoy the players telling that
storyline and getting into their

character arcs and getting into what
they feel like they could do anything.

You kind of, um, open worldness,
um, and I try to make the sessions

basically feel lived in, um, because
time passes between place to place

and they may revisit a place and it
may be totally different, you know?

So I try to make sure and keep in mind
when you do a sandbox that it is lived in.

The players are, are telling their story.

They're not necessarily the main
characters at that point, but

they are on a journey somewhere
and they're walking somewhere.

Zac: That's fair.

Like, so let me ask you this, coming from
a guy who plays more of a linear campaign

or, or tries to structure it more linear.

Um, what do you think, like, the biggest
roadblock is for, for the sandbox?

Now, I know we kind of mentioned, like,
everything's chaotic, like it's players…

The players-

Adam: Narratively driving that story.

Um, I'd say the, probably the, with
your question, the worst that we've

kind of been into is you can get
really sucked into not the main

storyline that you have and you're
completing all these other side quests.

Not necessarily that
that's not bad or anything.

I think every cartoon or every
TV show has filler episodes.

Well, they used to have filler episodes,
but it costs too much to do filler

episodes, so we gotta tell a story.

Zac: Thanks, AI.

Adam: So, um, but used to back in the
day, you would have tons of cartoons

and tons of TV shows that would
end up having filler episodes, and

that's where the filler episodes gave
character development to, to them.

So if you keep that in mind, um,
but also you gotta be careful of not

letting too many filler episodes into
the main, driven to the main storyline.

So that's why if you're ever gonna do
a sandboxy kind of campaign setting and

where the players are narratively driving
that story, always have an A to a B, but

inside that A is gonna be A dash one, A
dash two, however many A dashes you have.

But they don't have to find all the
d- uh, all the subplots inside of

there- Yeah … until they get to B.

That's not the goal of that sandbox.

But just be prepared to have
something there, like the carnival.

When y'all went to the carnival,
y'all could've decided not

to entertain the carnival.

That was a subplot.

Right.

But it was there.

Right.

But if y'all didn't wanna do
anything and just ignore it for

the night, y- you totally can.

That's the adjacency that you have.

But I would feel like if it was more
linear in style, like you, when you tell

the story, you would say, "Well, that
carnival is a part of that storyline."

Zac: There's definitely an
objective to be done at that point.

Adam: Yes.

Zac: Yeah.

I, I know, and I feel like, um,
I guess that's where my worry

comes from with the sandbox.

And I wouldn't say worry, just
for me personally, because

I would feel like- Well,

Adam: you're new.

You're not, you're not in, you-
Yes … y- I think as you get more

comfortable in the setting now as,
as we go through "Tales of the Broken

Realms" and Season 4 comes along, I
think you will end up looking back and

say, "I can relax just a little bit."

Zac: I would say yeah, I would say
that would be, believe it or not,

I think I would do that more now.

I think it's because "Tales
of the Broken Realm," that is

on an entirely set timetable.

Like that's a, that's a scheduled thing.

This is not a group of friend…

We're not just meeting every
other week to play this.

And yes, I love the people we play
with, but at the end of the day,

we're trying to set dates as to when
to get things out, and we are kinda

more structured on that timetable.

Um-

But I, I think where my concern comes
from in a sandbox world is that it's like

watering down apple juice for a child.

I feel like there's a perfect balance
where you can give those subplots, right?

That's the watered down.

And I'm not saying watered down
as in it's taking away flavor.

I'm saying there's a good balance-
Mm-hmm … between the two.

That's a healthy amount to add in.

And, but sometimes, like if you were
a kid and, you know, your parents

gave you watered down something,
watered down whiskey, for example.

I'm just kidding.

But if your parents gave you down,
you know, watered down something,

there is an extent in which
you water it down completely.

It loses the flavor, it
loses the profile and taste.

You don't even know what
you're drinking at that point.

You're like, "This is
a small flavor of it."

Adam: I, I think, I think I would
describe it as like when the ice

melts in a McDonald's Coke- Yes

and it's that aftertaste-
Ooh, yes … that you have-

Zac: Yeah, yeah, yeah

… Adam: with that.

Zac: Yeah, you're getting a completely
different drink at that point.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: And I think that's what my concern
is as a newer DM for doing that right now.

I do think it would be better if
we didn't have such a hard time

structure, but I do think that-

Adam: It's needed

Zac: it, it's-

Adam: For this kind of-

Zac: In this-

Adam: In this scenario-

Zac: Yes

… Adam: that we have- Hey … it's needed,
um, just because the structure is needed.

I mean, the whole, the whole gist of
"Tales of the Broken Realms" is to

tell each, give each dungeon master
a chance- To tell their story … to

tell a story- Yeah … inside
of a setting of the same world.

Um, and it's not just them having just
their story, but they, whatever happens

in that story affects the greater
storyline that we have tried to weave

through the seasons that we have.

Zac: And I think that's the, I think
that is, not to get off topic, but

that is the beauty of what we've done
with "Tales of the Broken Realms."

Like Season 1, that is the icebreaker.

That's gonna probably be our worst season.

I mean, if we're looking
at this like- Oh, there's

Adam: a

Zac: lot of growing pains … on
a technicality here.

Yeah, a

Adam: lot of growing pains.

Zac: This is a growing…

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, you're never gonna get-- This
is like first season of "The Office."

Mm-hmm.

If, if you like that show, like-

Adam: But we promise to be better,
and that's what the goal is.

Zac: Yeah.

I mean, of course we're gonna get better.

I'm not, that is the last worry, but
I'm saying there are gold moments within

this, but there's also growing things.

Like we're, we're seeing
linear would be me, Grace

Feel like Caleb

Adam: Yeah, Caleb kept it to one location.

Zac: Yeah.

So that's those-

Adam: And Grace did too.

But- That's usually what you find in
one-shots is the linearness of them.

Zac: And then Sam was
kinda more open to it.

You were more open to it.

Yeah.

Sky, well, Sky was very linear.

Sky was point A, point A
to point- Point A to point

Adam: death.

Death.

Zac: You're dying except for your-

Adam: Rook

Zac: bad-ass character.

Adam: Hey, he had,

Zac: he- I know why you had to survive.

You're a- He's

Adam: got more of a story to tell.

Zac: Yeah.

You couldn't afford for him to die.

We…

Listen to that one, folks, and tell
me that's not a fucking linear story.

It was

Adam: good though.

Zac: All right.

Okay, so- Um, so

Adam: we talked about pros and cons of the
sandboxiness of it, and we touched on a

little bit of pros and cons of linearness.

I think with linearness, you're
definitely gonna find one-shots fit

into that category very well, um,
because you're trying to tell that

story within a short time span.

Whether the, the campaign is sandbox-y
but you have them do a one-shot within

there, um, and that's kinda what I
try to do with, uh, our, uh, used

to be group is give them a chance
to DM a one-shot within the world.

Yeah.

Their choice.

Um, so that's kinda where the
one-shot linearness fits in.

I, I feel like in linear, like
you said, it's not watered down.

You're telling a more engaging story
and you get more engagement out of it.

Zac: Yes, I agree with you whole-
wholeheartedly, but where I will even

play devil's advocate to my own liking
of linear stories is that it is extreme.

Like, you can teeter the line between
Like creativity and freedom of your

players and railroading your players.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: I think that's the
biggest scare for me.

Like, I never want y'all to feel
like you are forced to do it.

Adam: I was forced to do that puzzle.

Zac: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We know about the puzzle.

Like, obviously y'all, like
where you are right now in the-

Adam: Yeah, well, we have a, we have a-

Zac: Lair of something I will
not name for those who haven't

listened to this podcast yet

Adam: It's basically just a
sakura, sakura pit or whatever.

Zac: All I know, they're in a lair, but
like that is a needed part of the story.

Now what happens afterwards, I don't know.

Y'all can die.

You could not die.

You could escape.

We're probably gonna die.

You could not escape.

You got F'd.

Adam: Hasn't happened yet, but-

Zac: You, you're going to get F'd.

Adam: I got F'd without
even me trying to F.

Zac: Wild magic, baby.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I know.

You know what I'm saying?

Adam: I, I see now why you got
rid of my wild magic though.

Zac: Do you see why I got rid of it?

Adam: Yeah.

Zac: No, I do.

It's way too unpredictable, man.

Yeah.

Like that happened, I was like,
"You've gotta be shitting me."

I was literally so upset
when your character did that.

I was like, "Well, this is
what's gotta happen now."

Adam: Yeah.

No,

Zac: yeah.

You gotta kamikaze run into the

Adam: boss.

Tune, tune into "Tales of the
Broken Realms" and find out what

happened to me, 'cause I will
tell you that was not my choice.

Zac: It wasn't, but to be fair,
the, the consequences were written.

Adam: They were, they were funny though.

They

Zac: were, they were founded in-

Adam: They were funny
consequences though, I will say.

Um-

Zac: Do not, uh, talk
to me about the ancient

Adam: texts.

But um, I think what we end up having
with the railroading, you also gotta

be careful of You don't wanna end up
giving optional encounters inside of

a linear campaign, um, 'cause you- No

you, you don't solve the
issue at hand if you do that.

Zac: Yeah, I mean-

Adam: Leave no stone unturned.

Zac: That's true, but also in, in
the offset that if you offer an

optional encounter, your players
already know you're, you're

story-driven in that campaign.

Like as a DM, they're gonna know, I
mean, or as a player, they're gonna

know their DM is very, like this
is, there is a point A to point B.

We keep using that analogy,
but that's the best one to say.

Um, if you offer anything to them,
they are going to investigate

it further because that has
something to do with your campaign.

Now, if you offer a one-off optional
character, then that story, like

you said, stone's left unturned.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Zac: Like what, what happened?

Adam: What happened?

No one knows.

And that, and th- and this is the, the
best of both worlds, I think, for- Yeah

… for us, and this is sandbox and linear.

We talk about it as they're
mutually exclusive, but

they're not at the same time.

Um, and we've hinted on
that throughout this, uh-

Zac: Entire talk

… Adam: you don't want, you don't
want to do just a linear campaign.

You don't want to do just the sandbox.

There's appropriate times for each.

I think if you're setting up an overall
setting for, as a new DM, if you're

just setting up a campaign and this
is your first time, I would definitely

err on the side of linear-ness.

Um- I think, yeah … if you're, if
you're trying to broaden after they do

a dungeon or a quest or, or whatever
inside that town, if you're trying to

broaden their horizon, then you start
venturing into the sandboxiness of D&D.

So there's times where you use
it, there's times when you're not,

especially when you're in dungeons and
you're dungeon crawling, you end up

having a linear set because they're
going through each room, they're

discovering the chests in the room.

If they're at the end of it,
there's a boss battle, and

then they get the treasure and
then they walk right back out.

Zac: I-

Adam: That's linear.

Zac: Yeah,

Adam: entirely.

There's not, it's hard
to do a sandbox, uh-

Zac: I would, I would say- … dungeon
… just how you said it right there, I

think linear is more on the easy side.

I'm not saying it's easy by any means.

No, it's

Adam: easier to prep.

Zac: Easier to prep.

There are more simplistic things
in a linear campaign, whereas your

sandbox is more advanced, right?

Yeah.

You're gonna be someone who's
done this a time or two.

Um- Y-

Adam: you wanna have linear
plot points in a sandbox world.

Zac: Yeah.

Adam: No, and like, like you said-
That's kinda how you, kinda how you

Zac: do it … this needs to be a perfect
blend, a hybrid essentially Of the two.

Um, but also coming from a DM's
perspective, I know you've heard

us talk linear, sandbox, and you're
probably like, "Which one do I do?

These guys like both."

Um, ask your players what they like.

That's, like, the biggest

Adam: I will tell you in the 20 years
of DMing, it hasn't been 20 years,

it's been 15, but anyways, um, the
easiest question you could always

ask is what do the players want?

'Cause at the end of the day-
What, what do you guys- … you're

telling, you're telling them, you're,
you're doing the story for them.

Zac: Oh, yeah.

Adam: I, I do it for myself, but I just
enjoy the control that Dungeon Master has.

But the story behind it, I'd like
to see what they can come up with.

Zac: Wow.

The psychological response I
have for that is wonderful.

I could be a therapist.

You like control 'cause
you don't have any.

No, um

… Adam: I have plenty of control.

Zac: I have control, I promise.

Um, ask your players, see what
they like, see if they're enjoying

what you're doing at the time of.

Have them be brutally honest with you.

If these are your best
friends, that makes it easier.

If these are people you're doing
it for the first time with, you

know, it's a random group, um,
ask them to be honest with you.

You know, constructive criticism.

If you wanna be a better DM, you have
got to take constructive criticism.

It's gonna happen.

I've taken it, you've
taken it, we've all…

It still to this day, it happens to both
of us, so I mean, that's the thing is-

Adam: No one's perfect

… Zac: you're going to be learning.

Adam: You're going to fail.

Zac: You're going to fail.

You're going to say things
your players don't like.

You're gonna say things your players love.

It happens both ways.

Learn from it, ask, be sure to be engaged.

You

Adam: grow.

Zac: Grow like a beautiful plant that's
been watered and, and given some-

Adam: Watered in criticism.

Zac: Watered in criticism and given
the sunlight of epiphanies and, I

don't know But that just grow as a

Adam: DM and, and learn to blend.

But if you want examples of sandbox
and linear, why not walk yourselves

over to Tales of the Broken Realms
where you're able to find out what

kind of style that you like, 'cause
we have multiple dungeon masters all

with their own unique styles, and you
get to listen to each one and learn.

Zac: Oh, they're br- they're
bringing their own flavor.

Adam: Our, our dungeon masters
for season one are brilliant.

Zac: They

Adam: are- Absolutely brilliant

… Zac: very awesome.

And we have decided for season two
we're gonna give them a little bit

longer of a time window to tell their
story- Yes … 'cause not everybody

got to wrap it up, um, the way they
wanted to, and we could tell that.

So that is a learning
curve we're learning.

That is

Adam: a grow.

Zac: That is a grow moment.

Feedback and grow.

Adam: Yep.

And that's kind of where we're
gonna end, uh, end off guys.

Uh, sandbox and linear, go check
out Tales of the Broken Realms.

There's plenty of people
that do both over there.

Um, you know, me and Zach have different
styles and we definitely have different,

uh, personalities when it comes to that.

Uh, and it's just, it's just the beauty
of what interacting with different

people brings different kinds of,
uh, opinions and growth from that.

So if you have any questions,
please reach out to us.

We love talking to you
guys on the internet.

Uh, you can find us at Pod Tavern
Talks, Instagram at Tavern Talks

Pod, TikTok at just Tavern Talks now.

Um, and let's see, what did I forget?

Zac: What'd you forget?

Adam: I think I forgot Threads.

That's right, Threads at Tavern Talks Pod.

Excuse me.

Zac: Oh,

Adam: we gotta get active on those too.

Uh, final thought, you know,
may your dice roll true, guys.

Your stories captivate,
and your campaigns be-

Zac: Legendary

… Adam: y'all be safe now.

Zac: Take care.

Goodbye