Tavern Talks

Adam: Well met, once more, seasoned
travelers and aspiring storytellers, and

welcome back to the Tavern Talks podcast.

I'm Adam, the Lorekeeper of our virtual
tavern, and with me is the sagacious Zac

Zac: Gather around the table fellow heroes
as we embark on another expectation into

the realms of imagination Today we delve
into the sacred art of dungeon crafting.

The initiation of dungeon masters into the
intricate dance of design and challenge.

Our

Adam: are raised high for
today's topic, as none other than

crafting your maiden dungeon.

Zac: That's right!

Picture stepping into our virtual
tavern, where the air is thick

with creativity and the echoes
of dungeon chambers reverberate.

Whether you've navigated dark
corridors or aspired to build

them, this episode is for you.

Adam: So pull up a chair fellow architects
of adventures and let's dive into the

art of crafting dungeons that will echo
through the annals of your campaigns.

Zac: the builders of mazes, the sculptors
of challenges, welcome to another

chapter of the Tavern Talks podcast.

Adam: The first dungeon.

Zac: your

Adam: players ever experience.

What was your first dungeon story, Zacary

Zac: My first dungeon story.

Yeah,

Adam: first dungeon story.

Oh

Zac: man.

Okay, so if

Adam: lost your virginity.

What's your

Zac: dungeon?

Adam: Yeah,

Zac: Yeah.

Pop.

The old d and d Cherry there.

Adam: Everybody remembers
their first dungeon.

Zac: No.

Adam: No, um,

Zac: d for the first
time, and I played my.

Dragonborn Barbarian, very original
character named Dante Mordoruk.

And, uh, we pretty much thought
it was a cobalt infested cave,

but it had a little bit more

Adam: And, uh,

Zac: secret to it.

And, uh, The campaign ended with us
almost dying, so, I mean, my first

dungeon was almost my last dungeon.

Adam: Well, that's what we're here
to do today is teach you as dungeon

masters to not try to kill your
party when it's their first dungeon.

Um, you know, I've been through many
dungeon dives and dungeon delves and

there's a, there's an art about it.

You don't want the
dungeon to last forever.

More than three, probably three sessions,
them actually diving deep in there

and you also don't want them finding
everything in the dungeon either.

You, you want to have a good balance
of secrets and hidden things as well

as monsters and forward thinking,
um, plans when you're creating the

dungeon based on the size of the party.

So what that kind of looks like is if you
have a party of three, you're not going

to have them go into a 14 room dungeon and
with, you know, five secret rooms as well.

You're going to tone that back, obviously,
and you're going to want to pick something

that fits with their expertise in mind
as well as what they're comfortable with.

If this is their very first dungeon
that they've ever experienced.

A goblin hideout is a very good
first dungeon for a lot of people.

It gives them open caverns,
as well as open rooms.

But you gotta think about, what
is this dungeon being used for?

If it's a goblin hideout Obviously there's
going to be places for bunks and beds.

There's going to be a treasure room
and then there's probably going to be

a, uh, armory of some, of some type.

Um, and that'll be your basic,
that, that'll be about it.

But if it's like a, a rogue
or a, um, like a underground

organization type of hideout,
then it's going to be more robust.

And more

Zac: Dungeony Of

Adam: of that, I would say.

You're gonna look for things of,
yeah, they're gonna bunk down,

so there's gonna be some bunks.

There may be a temple in there.

As well as there could be armories,
and libraries, and alchemy tables,

um, and alchemy rooms, and you
just kinda divide it out depending

on what they're looking for.

Um, and the reason why there's a, that
there's a dungeon in the first place.

If it's a Lich's Lair, there's gonna be
a lot of traps, a lot of, a lot of magic.

So if they use Arcana checks
or, you know, detect magic, it's

just gonna blow up, essentially.

So, going back to the first dungeon,
it really introduces the player to

challenges and really gets them into you
looking into the adventure aspect of it.

And Your first dungeon, you don't want
to, you know, kill them right off the

bat, nor do you want to create a dungeon
environment that just lasts forever.

Um, and I've made that mistake a couple
of times, and sometimes it's on the

players themselves, because they are
taking too much time in the dungeon,

and your sessions end, and you spend
six sessions in a dungeon, and after

you, after that, you're like, well, I
can't introduce a dungeon for quite some

time, because that was a whole month
that went by, For in real time, uh, and

they hadn't gotten out of the dungeon.

So listen for those cues of, Hey, I'm
a little tired of this dungeon while

they're playing and speed it along as
best you can, because they're not supposed

to find everything in the dungeon.

Also, they're not supposed to
fight everything in the dungeon.

They're supposed to be one sneaky, try to
get their objective done and then get out.

They're not there for a long time.

They're there for a good time.

Zac: Yeah, and, and dungeons can actually
change shape and form, whereas most of

the time a party's going into a dungeon
knowingly, it doesn't always have to,

you don't have to set the stage that way.

Um, a dungeon, you could accidentally
walk into a dungeon unknowingly, you

know, going, exploring a cavern, and it
leads into a long forgotten crypt, or,

you know, they're in a castle trying
to escape some guards, and, and they

can only go in the basement, and the
next thing you know, that castle's got

Adam: got, you know,

Zac: You know, tunnels built
underground where there's been

bodies buried or, you know, something
of the sort where catacombs.

Thank you.

Couldn't think of the word there.

Adam: You're welcome.

Zac: in terms of exploration
traps and possible encounters of

what the party's going to see.

Uh, traps are a big one for dungeons.

This is where you're going to see
it is called dungeons and dragons.

You're going to see you should
see more dungeons than you

should see everything else in my

Adam: see everything else.

You should see more

Zac: You should see more
dungeons than dragons.

If you're seeing more dragons
than dungeons, there, your,

your party better be level 20.

Easy.

Um, no, but you do want to make it to
where there's almost an equilibrium

of, of traps, encounters, and
exploration, but also give your party

Adam: of hey, you

Zac: a little bit of, Hey, you
know me, I'm a, I'm a lore slut.

Uh, I like a little bit of lore,
give them a little bit of backstory.

To a dungeon.

A dungeon doesn't have to be a
cookie cutter, um, version of, of

what you see every other DM doing.

It can be your own.

So, you know, you really want to add
a little bit of flair, uh, a person

ability to the dungeon itself and
kind of tie it in with your campaign,

no matter what you've got going in.

Adam: it

Zac: Adam, I'm gonna
brag on you for a minute.

Adam: no matter what

Zac: you're welcome.

Yeah, you're welcome

Adam: and I'm, I'm gonna
brag on you for a minute.

Zac did not return

Zac: does not return because you
killed his character too early Um,

no you you made it to where I I do
roll like shit nine times out of ten

be like more of a One out of ten.

Anyway, um, you made a, um, a
spire for us to go into, which had

Adam: Some may say a white spire.

Zac: It was, it was a white spire.

It was a white spire.

And,

Adam: me of the movie White Squall.

Zac: movie, White Squall.

You, you added, you added dungeon elements
into that without that being the cliché

Adam: Yeah, a dungeon in, in terms
of what a typical dungeon is,

it's got to have puzzles, traps,
and, um, you're, you're locked in.

You're not able to freely
walk where you want to go.

You're surrounded by walls of some kind.

So in, in that essence of the
White Spire, it was essentially a

dungeon crawl, but in the form of
a wizard's tower at that point.

And It wasn't

Zac: it, it wasn't just your
cut out of what's expected.

It, you know, there were alchemy labs.

Um, there were traps that weren't
just, Oh, you step on a pressure

plate and now your character gets
his leg crushed or anything like

Adam: that.

Uh, I don't know who did that.

But, you know,

Zac: you know, there,
there were traps where

Adam: did you roll again for that?

I

Zac: I rolled a seven.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, I feel like if we saw the
trap, if we saw the trap, a seven

would have still got me past the

Adam: You did get past the trap.

Zac: With my leg gone.

Adam: Consequences of your role.

Zac: Yes, because everything's
left to fate in D& D.

We know this.

Adam: rolled for it.

Zac: I know.

It's alright.

I, I, I like my peg leg now.

I'm gonna get a, a bionic
leg and we're gonna be fun.

Adam: it'll be, it'll be good.

Zac: So you can do evil things like
that in your campaign if you would

Adam: I'm gonna have handicapped stations
now, handicapped stalls in D& D now,

like little parking spaces for your, uh,

Zac: inclusive and I appreciate

Adam: Exactly, and guess who's
gonna get a, has to go to the

Empire to get a handicap tag now.

Poe.

Zac: about that.

Oh God Yeah, he is.

He's he's just pegged leg in his way

Adam: that was all from a
dungeon guys all from a dungeon

Zac: Well, I mean, dungeons, you can
have major events happen in Dungeons.

Don't just think your story is driven to
what happens above the subterranean world

or even, you know, outside of dungeons.

Once again, kind of adding into lore.

Build your story by
building your dungeons.

Yeah, a good story's gonna
have a good dungeon end of the

Adam: do it two ways here, and you may
take this into your own fruition later on.

When you start creating your own campaigns
and stuff, you're gonna end up, you're

gonna end up looking at a, I kind of do
it as a, is it this a nature, a natural

forming cave slash dungeon, or is this
manmade or is it some combo of the two?

Because that's how you're going to find
your layouts, that's how you're going

to find what kind of dungeon it is.

A dungeon is just an overall
umbrella name for it.

It could be crypts, it could be
forgotten tombs, uh, catacombs.

It could be, you know, the sewer
systems themselves under a city.

And you got to decide whether that cave
slash sewer system, what kind of elements

you're going to find in there, whether
it be sewer rats, sewer bandits, sewer

crocodiles, you can, you can find, um,
you can find different, so many different

aspects of going forth when you're picking
out your first dungeon, whether it be

a nature or a Man made net in or some
combo of the two that really will build

out the first couple of rooms for you
Because if it's in a nature if you ever

been inside of a cave and we have caverns
all around where we live And I as a kid

like to explore them You're gonna have a
like a antechamber of some sort and then

you're gonna go into Deeper and there's
gonna be smaller rooms Portions that kind

of squeeze you tight and, and kind of
make the party decide who goes in front.

And then there's going to be these
large caverns that open up wide.

And as the deeper they, and
further they go, the smaller

the cave kind of may become.

And those elements in
a natural forming cave.

Take those into account when
creating your, your dungeon because

there'll be the antechambers,
there'll be the chambers themselves.

It's just not, you're not looking at,
when you're creating it, you're not

just looking at boxes on, on the map.

You're really creating it as your own.

In your man made world, and your
man made dungeons, you're gonna look

into more of an aspect of, Okay.

Where are they?

How would they form this?

What is their first barriers
to entry of getting inside of

these types of dungeon crawls?

What, what do they expect us to find as
players inside this man made dungeon?

A natural and, and it's not natural.

So there's gonna be cobblestone,
there's gonna be wood, there's

gonna be doors at that point that
they're gonna have to get through.

And what lies behind the door?

What makes sense to them?

Is it gonna be bunk beds, is
it gonna be armories or is

it gonna be treasures untold?

Or, and then, hey, there's
gotta be escape route.

At some point, someone's gotta
think of an escape route because

if they get found, they're gonna
try to escape so that there's gonna

be hidden passageways as well.

Those.

Initial building the, the encounter
itself and building the dungeon

will help you move it into a better
environment for the players themselves.

And I think that's what a lot of
people miss out when they create their

first dungeon is, oh it's four rooms
and at the end of the fourth room

there's the altar and the treasure.

And that's

Zac: And that's it.

That's where it ends.

Adam: ends.

We're not saying it has to be

Zac: exciting one.

But we're not saying it has to
be the most intricate design

and layout known to mankind, but

Adam: the finale, the

Zac: Yeah, that needs to be the finale,
the climax of what your campaign's

leading to, but what you do want to have
in your dungeon are good combatants,

um, something that's actually going
to stop the party instead of just

a couple of puzzles here and there.

Dungeons are built off of what
creatures, adversaries, fighters,

whatever you decide to throw at them.

But here's something that I
would stress more so than not.

Um, do not just throw whatever creature
you want in a dungeon just because.

Don't be like, oh it's a cave, there is
a, there's a ancient red dragon there.

Just cause.

Um, Slowly back

Adam: yep, the

Zac: thing, uh, you mentioned, you
know, you don't want to throw anything

Adam: they said no.

Correct.

Mm

Zac: a red

Adam: And throwing a red dragon
or some kind of dragon, that just

doesn't make sense lore wise.

And Zac likes to keep lore
consistent throughout.

Zac: Dragons

Adam: are not gonna be, you're
not gonna randomly find a dragon

Zac: if you're, if your party and
your DM have come to the conclusion

you're going to do more of a
homebrew that allows that kind of

tomfoolery.

The only

Adam: that I created was a trek to get to.

Zac: I mean, it wasn't just, oh,
dragons there because they're there.

It's, it's It was a build up there.

There was necessity to it.

There was a storyline to get to it.

Um, kind of saying like if you were
to go into a crypt, you're not just

going to find three mind flayers in
a, you know, uh, elder brain there.

It just, that doesn't track.

So

Adam: track.

So,

Zac: when you're creating parties, uh,
excuse me, party enemies, you want to make

sure that the enemy matches with the world
you have built and that they match to the

Adam: of your party.

Zac: Level of your party.

Um, you know, you, you don't want
to introduce something that is

going to completely TKO your party.

It's, it's going to take away the fun.

Adam: mean, look, you can

Zac: look, you can do that later levels.

Adam: doing a

Zac: We killed a dragon.

Okay.

At level five.

I'm pretty proud of us.

Adam: With how much help?

We

Zac: We had help.

Yeah, sure.

Adam: Okay.

Zac: I didn't get, I didn't get goofed.

Don't look at me.

Adam: didn't get goofed

Zac: Yeah, the one time
I don't get goofed, I

Adam: was

Zac: a dragon.

Yeah, it was in an astral plane.

It was a completely different thing.

And that wasn't even a dungeon,
so I can't even say anything.

But, long story short, don't You need
to have smaller enemies, and you need

to have a buildup to a larger enemy.

Adam: Well like in in lost delphin if
you're following along with that, you know

Zac: um,

Adam: official D& D lore

Zac: That

Adam: they start you with the goblin
hideout and that goblin hideout has Low

level goblins and bobble in the goblin.

Um, if you talk to them and

Zac: bobbling Is that
where bobbling came from?

Are you kidding me?

This whole time.

I didn't know where bobbling
the goblin came from.

Adam: call yourself a dnd fan

Zac: Look dude, i'm the new dm.

Okay

Adam: you things teaching you things

Zac: you need to be accepting i'm
supposed to be here for fun And

I've been here for masochism so far.

Adam: masochism so far.

I think any trope follows that.

I mean, I'm gonna use a game as

Zac: And I think any
trope follows that though.

I mean, I'm going to use a game as example
Skyrim obviously heavily influenced by D&

D but any dungeon you go into with that
there is a final whether it be a mini

it's not you know a full fledged boss
but it is a mini boss of sorts and it

might be um a draugr or a wraith or you
know they rarely do dragons in dungeons

when it comes to that but in terms of of
a boss it doesn't necessarily have to be

the biggest baddest thing in the world.

Um, make it suitable for your
party, uh, a lich is not a bad one.

It's a, it's a, it's a cliche one,
but it's, it's also very good to have

Adam: to have, you're calling me cliche.

I had a Lich dungeon, but it

Zac: There's nothing wrong

Adam: was under a church and under a
graveyard, which was very really cool.

Zac: lich is an undead

Adam: but he was under the
church, under the graveyard and

he was using those bodies for his

Zac: there's a church under the graveyard.

Adam: no, there's a church and in the
altar you you slide open the sarcophagus

and then you see then you meet the
elders of the Temple buried there and

then you then there's one that if you
look into it It hollows out if they

pass a perception and an investigation
check They can rip open one of the

coffins and that takes them deeper
down and then there's the liches layer

underneath that of course, there's like
three more rooms before that but You

Zac: that.

And of course there's like three
more rooms before that, but

Adam: plenty of rules.

Zac: have plenty of rules.

Uh while your players

Adam: that seemed like an attack on

Zac: That's not an attack i'm
just saying Listen, that's my

play style versus your play style.

I would be like I want them
to find it i've invested

Adam: called me a menace in the group

Zac: They are he is a

Adam: I got called a menace.

I don't know how I should
feel about that as the DM.

Zac: you should feel
great that's what you want

Adam: Do I though?

I want to be well liked though.

Zac: And feared like michael scott said
I want them to love me and fear me,

Adam: that what's going on?

You love me and fear me at the same time?

Zac: a good combo, that, hey,
everything needs balance.

And that's a healthy balance.

That is a

Adam: That's a good breakfast.

Zac: That is a breakfast of
D& D champions right there.

Fear and love.

Yeah.

Adam: You're introducing multiple enemies,
but don't have an enemy every room.

Because then that gets really boring real
quick, because it's a slog to get through.

I will, I will warn you, if you
put an enemy in every single room

and have to go to combat every

Zac: time.

Role initiative.

Role initiative.

Role initiative.

Adam: it's not gonna

Zac: be fun.

No.

And, and God, this is me kissing your
ass this whole episode, but I'm gonna say

Adam: thought that's what this
whole podcast was me kissing my

Zac: you're welcome.

I

Adam: my ass every day.

Zac: let's,

Adam: what?

Zac: you know what?

I don't even want to ask how you do
that, but look, I'm gonna say this.

I will say you had a really good our
first dungeon where yes, I did lose my

leg as a character But I will say you
introduced a mechanic that I really liked

Adam: really liked.

Not the

Zac: Not the wizard's tunnel

Adam: That was good, but

Zac: that was good, but i'm
talking about where the statues of

Adam: Oh, that was a Reddit post.

Listen, I'm telling you guys, if
you're listening, 10 out of 10,

half of my crap comes from Reddit
that someone else posed as an

Zac: here to be inspired by others y'all

Adam: I'd love to be inspired by others.

Reddit was the first one.

Zac: and and

Adam: Zac fell for it,
it was just so beautiful.

Zac: it to them.

They're not, they don't know the

Adam: So,

Zac: They got some time.

Adam: have like a, I have
a, they got time, they're

Zac: was

Adam: us at this point.

Um, so they're in a, um, a
basically a wizard's tunnel that

the wizards used as a retreat
mechanism to get out of harm's way.

Um, when the order member comes
and, and takes, and tries to take

them away or kill them, vice versa.

Well, Zac gets through the first couple
of challenges with the party and that's

where he loses his leg because he
activates a trap, uh, on a pressure

plate and it causes the walls to close
in on him and they close fast and

he rolled poorly so he lost his leg.

Well, they heal him up,
they go into the next room.

Well, there is a drider.

Statue in the next room and if Zac would
have said oh, hey, that's the driner.

It would have activated
a Challenge rating.

I think it's like 13 driner

Zac: guess what?

I'm so damn glad I did.

I couldn't think of the word for it.

That is.

But I knew what it was.

I was like, oh, that's what LULF is.

And I was like, I don't know the word
for that, but we're gonna keep going.

Yeah,

Adam: that's what roleplay is.

Zac: Warlord.

Hobgoblin Warlord, specifically.

Adam: know the word

Zac: and animals.

I say, hey, that looks like a
hobgoblin warlord right there.

And then I just

Adam: Just keep going.

Yeah,

Zac: well that's how combat should
be when it comes to, you know,

Adam: know, Characters

Zac: Characters and enemies
within the dungeon itself.

But not everything has to be an enemy.

Um, within a dungeon.

You can also have some allies.

Which Yeah, I

Adam: really do a lot of
dungeon crawls early on.

Because it ends up being
a TPK a lot of the times.

Because it's a slog.

But I don't want to tbk you

Zac: I don't want to TPK you.

Maybe

Adam: maybe the entire party not
just calling you out specifically

Zac: You have it in for me
sometimes, it's alright.

Adam: you deserve it.

Zac: This

Adam: on how the week went.

Wow!

Zac: God bless.

All right, cool.

Now I know, uh, I have to really kiss ass

Adam: that.

Depends on how well this podcast
does, is how it sets the mood for

Zac

this point, when it releases, y'all
will be sitting there asking the

question, does Zac survive this?

We will find out.

Zac: You you will know later on I
might come back crying next week

and say I lost him He's gone.

I'll play guys his son

Adam: That boy's dead.

But there's plenty of other things that
you can do to to Encourage boss encounters

as well at the end of the always at the
end of the dungeon or right before the

end I include like a larger Hard fought
creature of some kind in there just

because it's fun to fight them as well
as gives them experience but Depends on

what they're looking for in the dungeon.

Is it treasure?

Is it gonna be an artifact?

Is it gonna be a, uh,
phylactery of a lich?

Or is it gonna be a book?

Is it gonna be a crypt?

Uh, they're uncovering, you know,
one of the monk's, uh, seven

wonders or something like that.

There's multiple different options.

You just gotta make sure when you
create your dungeon, dungeon masters

out there, that you have an end goal
for the dungeon so they can get out.

Why are they in there in the first place?

They just don't stumble upon a
dungeon without telling themselves

Hey, there's been talks of a
sacred text that's out there.

That kind of gives them the
opportunity to initially, initially

when you create the dungeon to have
a finality of the dungeon itself.

So having a guardian or a boss
encounter in there is pivotal.

Whether it be a trap, boss battle
or a puzzle boss battle or an

actual boss battle themselves.

Just look into different ways on
Reddit of different boss encounters

and different puzzles that you can
present your characters and you can

go forth and enjoy yourselves on that.

Going into the next, uh, segment,
we wanna make sure that you end

up setting the tone per dungeon.

So every, you wanna make sure
you use Descriptions, sounds, and

visuals to make sure you really
encapsulate what they're looking at.

Whether it be you're using
Roll20, or Foundry, or AboveVTT,

which are great resources to
use to give visuals to things.

And you already have a map laid out,
and the map itself formed, and they

can get a good idea of where they
need to go and what they need to do.

Thank you.

Going into it, you want to make sure
you yourself have good descriptions

of the environment around them.

Maybe the stalactites themselves
are dripping with water because

this is a natural forming cave,
or maybe the cobblestone is burnt

and there's a layer of coal that
surrounds the, uh, That surrounds it.

There's different things like that that
indicate that this place is not only real

That it has been lived in and there's
signs of living in there because the

coal on the on the cobblestone indicate
that there was a fire there because

someone was cold at one point Add a dead
skeleton in there had a dead party member

had a dead person that they don't know

Zac: they gotta be dead?

Adam: Because the bones, they talk to

Zac: wouldn't that just be a skeleton?

Adam: Or you can add a dead person
saying that somebody else tried this.

Or maybe they're trying to find
somebody and they find out that they're

Zac: they find out that they're dead.

Adam: mean there's different
things like that that make it

look and feel real to the party.

And it's up to you as Dungeon Masters
to describe and evoke the sense of

place in the environment around you.

Zac: And, and don't just be afraid
to use the imagery in your words.

You know, it, it, it doesn't take much
to add a little bit, bit of ambience,

ambiance, uh, to the setting itself.

Ambiance.

Ambience, is it ambience?

I've been saying ambience.

The, our ambience the
whole, my entire life.

Adam: Well, that's because
you're from Mississippi.

And

Zac: Not

Adam: lower education bracket
than the rest of the upper 48.

Zac: Okay.

All right.

I see how it is.

Adam: we're

Zac: we're not all mud crawlers

Adam: down there.

Zac: We're not all good old
boys down there, okay, partner?

Adam: Technically you're
up there, but you know.

Zac: Uh, I'm just really
driving it in there.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, ooh, okay, I'm from Delta.

Woo!

Okay.

Anyway.

I

Adam: a bone.

You hit a bone.

One thing Z does not like is
that he's made fun of for that.

He's from Mississippi.

We're not known for a lot
of good things though.

Magnolia trees.

Yeah, we do have really pretty magnolia.

There you go.

The birthplace of Elvis Presley.

Zac: And

Adam: you gave us Oprah.

Oh yeah.

Oprah

Zac: That's true.

Adam: from, that's right.

And Morgan Freeman.

So, yeah, I

Zac: yeah, I don't even want to hear it.

So, long story short though.

Adam: it.

So, long story short, though.

This is why I'm the

Zac: This is why I'm the new DM,

Adam: learning.

Still

Zac: still learning, so to speak, um,
add some music to your, your dungeon

crawl, um, sounds even, and you don't
have to have a fancy sound board.

It takes five

Adam: What are you talking about?

Fancy soundboards are great.

It gets you to sound like a monster.

Zac: Are you done?

One more.

What are you making me sound like, Adam?

Adam: Oh, nothing.

Don't worry about

Zac: No, you're making me

Adam: find out in post.

Zac: Oh, great!

Adam: Those are great.

Those are just crickets.

Zac: Also,

Adam: also post monologue
music is great too.

Just getting the vibe there.

Zac: I can't hear it right
now because I don't have

Adam: That's okay.

I'm listening to it right now.

Zac: Yeah, well, he's supposed to
be kind of in a wire detective.

That's what's all

Adam: that's the theme.

So now you got

Zac: he has internal monologues.

That's his, he likes his
smooth jazz and blues.

Adam: it.

He really wanted that the first
time I ever did that to him.

He was like, what the hell is going on?

I was like, this is your internal
monologue like they do in the

movies and he just went for it.

It was just beautiful.

Zac: Thank you.

I'll take that as a compliment.

Okay.

Well, long story short though.

It doesn't, you don't have to have
the fancy soundboard like Adam here.

You, you can use a phone, make a playlist.

It takes maybe five

Adam: There is a thing called,
I believe, let me see on

Zac: called.

I believe

Adam: No, it's

Zac: that's a book of Mormon song, man.

We're going to get

Adam: style is what it's called.

And they got some things
like hips don't lie.

Zac: Do not play that in your dungeon.

This is not Baldur's Gate 3.

We're not trying to seduce everybody.

Adam: I mean, if you are a bard,
you want to seduce everything

and anything to annoy your DM.

Zac: annoy your demons.

I think that Madeline

Adam: hasn't caught on yet.

Madeline?

Zac: she does the light flirtations.

Adam: flirtation.

I'm waiting until she tries to do
something like that Kenku earlier.

I don't expect

Zac: I don't expect her to do that.

She's, she stands on a higher
moral ground as a bard than that.

Adam: a shocker.

Zac: That's rude.

Adam: is not always what bards want to do.

Zac: is not always what bards want to do.

What if they just want to naturally
They want to naturally charm people.

You're going to have to bleep that out.

They

Adam: that out.

They want to

Zac: charm people.

What's wrong with charming people?

Adam: You look

Zac: You look like you
have something to say, Adam

Adam: Adam.

I got plenty to say, but not

Zac: All right.

Well that kind of brings us into,
um, one of our last segments here.

We, we want to give you guys tips as to
how to balance a storyline with dungeons.

When you're, when

Adam: you're with a dungeon,
you think it's a straight path.

And I kind of always form a
dungeon as a straight path.

And then from that straight
path, I let it take me.

Split and branch and become Loki season
2 with the timeline branches split out.

Zac: timeline branches cut out.

I told

Adam: I told you that in

Zac: in confidence.

Uh, anyways.

Adam: Uh, anyways.

Zac: start

Adam: You start out linear, and then
you add extra rooms in the dungeon

itself to create, and then you
remove some entranceways and exits.

That way, the players have to
individually figure out how to

navigate the dungeon itself.

So always start linearly.

And then let the, let the rooms
come together from the linear

transaction and let it branch out
because that's the easiest way to

form a dungeon is, Hey, they went
to this room, this room, this room.

And at the end of that
room lies the objective.

Okay.

So there's three rooms there.

Let's add four more around the
perimeter and let's see how

they all connect up together.

Oh, let's add a secret passageway,
just like in the board game clue from

the observatory to the, uh, believe
it's the, uh, greenhouse and they

connect through a secret passageway.

So those type of things linearly
first, and then start branching out to

connect the dots of how they need to
navigate, how you tell them to navigate.

Yeah, and honestly, this is something
to think about when the grand scheme of

Zac: Yeah, and honestly, this, this
is something to think about when the

grand scheme of a dungeon gets involved.

Um, you really want, oh god, here we go.

Adam: Okay.

Zac: his notes.

Adam: off his, he just texted his wife.

Zac: his He turned off

Adam: store?

Zac: wife.

Hey baby, did you go to the grocery store?

That dragon just

Adam: dragon just flew by and
distracted you, didn't it?

Zac: distracted you, didn't it?

Make sure that your players
actually enjoy the dungeon itself.

And like you said, yes, you
can multi layer a dungeon.

You can have it.

But don't have it so complex that
it's just going to have them confused.

And like you said earlier, it's going to
have them stuck there for a long time.

Seven sessions.

I

Adam: going to get tired of it

Zac: And here's the thing.

They're not gonna be able to explore
every single nook and cranny of a

dungeon It's just not how that happens.

Now.

You can encourage them to to kind
of go off the beaten path Maybe you

do have some rewards set aside from
them if they're clever enough if they

roll well enough, that's fine That DM
knew it new DM old DM doesn't matter

Adam: for your players.

The

Zac: But don't make it
uninteresting for your players.

The whole, and we'll drive
this like a broken record.

The whole point of hosting a D&
D session and being the DM is

to keep your players interested.

Active engaged.

Um, this is something you want them
to have fun with, but also give

them a little bit of a challenge.

Like see how clever they actually are.

See if they outsmart you.

If they outsmart you, just
come back 10 times harder.

Stop.

Adam: they outsmart you.

If they outsmart you, just

Zac: we haven't been super clever, Adam.

I mean, there's been moments.

I know a

Adam: there's been moments

Zac: you.

A Raptor that's more clever than me.

They were the smartest.

Yeah, I was about to say they
were, they were the smartest Dinos.

So I'm not really taking offense to
that Um, no, but, um, yeah, I mean

Adam: You know what,
he'll take offense too.

Zac: What, what are you gonna say?

I'm from, where are you
gonna, where are you gonna do?

You are gonna do the crickets.

You doing the crickets right now?

You're playing it.

I can't hear it.

You can hear it.

What's exactly, what was it?

Adam: you'll find out.

Zac: I'll find out.

I just have to listen with these people.

Adam: editing this, are you not?

I'm

Zac: the first episode.

Am I doing the third too?

Or the fifth or the sixth?

Whatever the

Adam: you wanted to learn.

Zac: Oh, you're really
gonna throw that on me.

Okay.

Adam: the lazy

Zac: Oh, okay.

I love it.

Have everybody do your work.

Adam: Listen, it's

Zac: As both a player
and a co host podcaster.

Adam: it was hard to be this beautiful.

Zac: You know what?

sick of you.

I'm so sick of you.

Alright.

Well,

Adam: Does that end it?

We end it?

We're done?

That's it?

You said everything you wanted to say?

We're done?

Zac: got it

Adam: Oh, I just wanted to say one thing
if you're listening to this because we're

releasing this like far into the future.

It's Are the bugs taking
over Super Earths yet?

Zac: Oh!

Helldivers, we need you for democracy.

Adam: Is this still a game that
we still play and let's say like a

Zac: Oh, God, I

Adam: or is it just dead

Zac: dude, the mech suits
are coming out soon.

That's In the past, but now
we're listening to it in

Adam: future.

We have mech suits now,

Zac: have mech suits.

The mech suits are too powerful.

Adam: is Baldur's Gate crossplay?

Still?

Like, uh, we got crossplay yet

Zac: Yeah, do we have crossplay?

Is crossplay available?

I need to know.

My wife and I want to know.

Adam: Anyways, I hope you enjoyed
this first dungeon session.

Plotting it out, just remember
guys, linearity wins you the game.

Zac: that a word?

Adam: I just made it
up, if it's not a word.

Zac: Welcome to DMing.

You make up

Adam: I make up stuff all the time.

I fudge rolls all the time.

Zac: That's alright.

Adam: So that way I don't kill
them, cause about every single

encounter I've almost killed them,
or killed them, but they don't know

Zac: I'm somehow really
good at actual fighting.

But I suck at every other role.

Adam: But you end up wanting to make a
linear dungeon and make it, you know,

natural forming or make it a man made
and then have an objective inside

that cave, whether they're going to
find something, retrieve something,

or there you have stumbled upon it
because there's missing peoples, there's

different things like that, that end up.

Producing a great storyline for you
and the ends up creating a great

camaraderie amongst the players after
they survive their first dungeon.

So you want to make sure that you have
that linearity involved, and then start

forming your branches of different
other anti rooms that surround the

linearity, and then start removing
entrances and exits, and you'll find a

pathway that you kind of want them to
take, but also make things discoverable,

Zac: discoverable,

Adam: find treasures, find secret
items that have long been forgotten

if they roll well enough for it.

That's all I gotta say about
the first session and the

first dungeon that you create.

You want it to make it memorable,
make it exciting for your players,

but don't make it too long.

Don't have too many encounters in there.

At least stick to at least
three encounters inside of a

dungeon on the first, uh, whether
they're level one or level five,

whatever you start them off at.

And they're going in knowing
that this is their first dungeon.

You don't want it to be a slog.

You want it to be a nice wrapped
up between one to two sessions.

So don't make it long and then make
it fun for them to discover things.

Make puzzles, find puzzles on
Reddit that are door puzzles

because these are, those kind of
puzzles are fun, uh, to figure out.

And once they figure it
out, they feel accomplished.

And the ultimate goal is to make sure
when the players exit that dungeon, they

feel like they accomplished their goal
on top of having fun at the same time.

Cause that's what we want.

Zac: Don't forget to reward your
players, please for the love of God

Adam: It sounds like I
don't reward you enough.

Zac: You've given us one nice reward

Adam: Excuse

Zac: You've given us

Adam: given you a lot.

Zac: Okay a few here and there

Adam: Rainbow potions.

Potions of

Zac: we don't know what they do, Adam.

It is completely up to chance.

So 1

Adam: through 20 roll.

Zac: with that being said.

And

Adam: you have it.

Noble Dungeon Architects.

Before I kill Zac later on in these
episodes, uh, the conclusion of another

chapter is here at Tavern Talks, we've
ventured through the depths of the Dungeon

Design, unraveling Secrets, and laying
the foundation for Epic Tales out there.

Zac: A heartfelt thank you to
all of our listeners who've

joined us on this expedition.

Your presence in our virtual tavern adds
to the enchantment of our shared journey.

Adam: we close the door on the discussion
of crafting your first dungeon,

we want to hear from your tales.

Reach out to us on Twitter at
podtaverntalks, on Instagram at

taverntalkspod, or share your experiences
over on the TikTok at taverntalkspod.

Zac: Whether you've created intricate
labyrinths or faced the challenges

within them, your stories matter,
and we're eager to hear them.

Adam: them.

So until our tankers meet again, fellow
architects, may your dice be fair, your

dungeons legendary, and may your campaigns
echo through the halls of gaming history.

Zac: Here's to the creators of
challenges, the architects of adventures.

Until next time, safe travels, and
may your tales be ever legendary.